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  #31  
Old November 16th, 2007, 10:27 AM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhurandhar
AFAIK, Soviets never sent wired monkeys/rat/rodents to moon...that was before Gagarin was sent up in space

Soviets did send a few unmanned spacecrafts, notably Lunokhods to get data about the moon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunokhod

If it were not for the combustion instability plaguing their rocket engines, Soviets would have sent man to moon earlier than USA
Just happen to recollect a bit of technical info about this, if anyone cares to read....

The combustion instability arose due to the desire of the Russians to use the exhaust flue gases from the Gas Turbine to be used again in the main combustion chamber of the exhuast nozzle.... This would have raised the combustion pressures and hence higher exit velocity and improved thrust.... It was a technology that was never tried before.... In doing so, the temperatures and pressures would reach levels never achieved before....

Conventional Rocket designs allowed the Flue Gases from the Gas Turbine to Exhaust into the atmosphere at a very high temp.... (A simple but wasteful design : an open cycle design)... Russians wanted to use this exahust from Gas Turbine to be fed back to the main combustion chamber instead of venting to the atmosphere..... This was needed because they were incapable of making a Rocket design as powerful as the Saturn V design that used only 5 boosters.... The Russian equivalent, N1, was to use 30 boosters...!!! By using a closed cycle design they could have attained 25% higher efficiency for each of those 30 engines....!!!

However, as is known, N1 programme was scrapped because US had already reached the moon..... But the closed cycle design was perfected in NK-33, successor of N1, and RD180 Rocket designs that recently powered the Atlas Rockets during it's initial 180 seconds in the flight....
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  #32  
Old November 16th, 2007, 10:50 AM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

Quote:
Originally Posted by rahulpsharma
Just happen to recollect a bit of technical info about this, if anyone cares to read....

The combustion instability arose due to the desire of the Russians to use the exhaust flue gases from the Gas Turbine to be used again in the main combustion chamber of the exhuast nozzle.... This would have raised the combustion pressures and hence higher exit velocity and improved thrust.... It was a technology that was never tried before.... In doing so, the temperatures and pressures would reach levels never achieved before....

Conventional Rocket designs allowed the Flue Gases from the Gas Turbine to Exhaust into the atmosphere at a very high temp.... (A simple but wasteful design : an open cycle design)... Russians wanted to use this exahust from Gas Turbine to be fed back to the main combustion chamber instead of venting to the atmosphere..... This was needed because they were incapable of making a Rocket design as powerful as the Saturn V design that used only 5 boosters.... The Russian equivalent, N1, was to use 30 boosters...!!! By using a closed cycle design they could have attained 25% higher efficiency for each of those 30 engines....!!!

However, as is known, N1 programme was scrapped because US had already reached the moon..... But the closed cycle design was perfected in NK-33, successor of N1, and RD180 Rocket designs that recently powered the Atlas Rockets during it's initial 180 seconds in the flight....

I am afraid I have no idea what you are talking about. How does gas turbine come into picture? Are you talking of the turbine driving the cryogenic pump?
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  #33  
Old November 16th, 2007, 10:55 AM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhurandhar
I am afraid I have no idea what you are talking about. How does gas turbine come into picture? Are you talking of the turbine driving the cryogenic pump?
He probably meant to say that a small part of the exhaust gases from the rockets combustion chamber are recycled to heat the chamber, to provide for higher pressures and temparatures, while the rest blew out freely providing thrust. No turbine is used in the rocket - I mean the mechanical power from the exhaust is used to provide thrust to the rocket rather than turning blades of a turbine
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  #34  
Old November 16th, 2007, 01:28 PM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2gud
He probably meant to say that a small part of the exhaust gases from the rockets combustion chamber are recycled to heat the chamber, to provide for higher pressures and temparatures, while the rest blew out freely providing thrust. No turbine is used in the rocket - I mean the mechanical power from the exhaust is used to provide thrust to the rocket rather than turning blades of a turbine
What drives the cryogenic pump? I am sure it is not battery operated

But on reading rps's post...you might have interpreted it correctly
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  #35  
Old November 16th, 2007, 01:40 PM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

Hum log bhi Pani dhoondhane jaa rahe hai, India me Pani ka bada crisis hai naa, kahi Bijali bhi hai kya to link post karo bhai log

India has drawn up plans to send a spacecraft to Mars and have flyby missions to comets and asteroids over the next five years.
The Indian Space Research Organisation will also ramp up the number of transponders on its communication satellites to 500 from the current 175 to meet the growing demand in the various sectors.
Government has also proposed to more than double the plan outlay ISRO to Rs 27,305 crore to enable it achieve its ambitious programmes, including facilitating tele-medicine and tele-education services.
The Eleventh Plan has identified building capabilities in space communications and navigation, developing navigational satellite systems, research in satellite communications and self sustenance of INSAT/GSAT systems as major areas of focus.
ISRO is expected to operationalise the Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle Mark III capable of putting four ton satellites in orbit and develop technologies to recover spacecraft after completion of missions.
India's maiden moon mission Chandrayaan-I will take to the skies on April nine and ISRO has already begun finalising details for a second lunar mission with a possible launch in the next three years.
While Chandrayaan-I will orbit the moon, following mission would be an advanced one with lander and rover for collection and analysis of lunar samples.

The draft plan document also lists advanced space endeavours like mission to Mars, and flyby missions to comets and asteroids as thrust areas for the next five years.
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  #36  
Old November 16th, 2007, 07:53 PM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhurandhar
I am afraid I have no idea what you are talking about. How does gas turbine come into picture? Are you talking of the turbine driving the cryogenic pump?
Sorry, I think I should do proof-reading of my posts, lest they may be confusing...

Yes, that's right.... The fuel pumps are turbine driven (Gas Turbine...??? Well, one may want to say it's a Liquid Fuel Turbine cos the fuel is liquid, but it's called Gas Turbine due to it's design....)... I meant what you understood.... The Fuel pumps cant be battery driven..... that would, perhaps, offer a bad power to weight ratio.... (Mech engineers will probably confirm that a Gas Turbine has an exceedingly good power to weight ratio)....

The Rocket fuels are pumped into the main combustion chamber by TURBINE driven PUMPS.... A small part of this fuel is 't-offed"/"siphoned"/"tapped" (or whatever is the correct technical word) into a pre-burner, where it is ignited and used to run the Turbine for driving the Pumps...!!! The exhaust of this Turbine was conventionally vented..... Russians had perfected the closed loop design - feeding the exhaust from the turbine to the Main Combustion Chamber - way back in late sixties and early seventies only.... Sergei Koreleyov (excuse the spelling), the chief designer of Rockets in erstwhile USSR, was the brain behind the closed cycle designs.... N1 would have been ready before Saturn V had it not been for the untimely death of Sergei Koreleyov (Spell check needed...!!!)....

A team from Lockheed Martin went to Russia in mid nineties to see if such a 'legendary' design really existed.... They wouldnt believe it just by seeing it.... So they requested Boris Yeltsin to send two engines to US for validating the performance parameters, which the Americans thought were simply unattainable..... To their surprise, the engine's seemingly "over-rated" performance parameters were indeed real.... NPO Energomesh (Spell check needed...!!) who honed the design of N1's successor NK-33 and RD-180 engines, later allowed their engines to fly the Atlas rocket (I dont remember the date but it was quite recently).....!!!! Ironically, it was a rocket pointed at USSR, during the cold war days, that was converted to a satellite launcher....!!!!
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  #37  
Old November 16th, 2007, 07:58 PM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2gud
He probably meant to say that a small part of the exhaust gases from the rockets combustion chamber are recycled to heat the chamber, to provide for higher pressures and temparatures, while the rest blew out freely providing thrust. No turbine is used in the rocket - I mean the mechanical power from the exhaust is used to provide thrust to the rocket rather than turning blades of a turbine
How would the fuel pumps run and supply fuel to the Main combustion chamber??
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  #38  
Old November 16th, 2007, 08:09 PM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

Quote:
Originally Posted by rahulpsharma
Sorry, I think I should do proof-reading of my posts, lest they may be confusing...

Yes, that's right.... The fuel pumps are turbine driven (Gas Turbine...??? Well, one may want to say it's a Liquid Fuel Turbine cos the fuel is liquid, but it's called Gas Turbine due to it's design....)... I meant what you understood.... The Fuel pumps cant be battery driven..... that would, perhaps, offer a bad power to weight ratio.... (Mech engineers will probably confirm that a Gas Turbine has an exceedingly good power to weight ratio)....

The Rocket fuels are pumped into the main combustion chamber by TURBINE driven PUMPS.... A small part of this fuel is 't-offed"/"siphoned"/"tapped" (or whatever is the correct technical word) into a pre-burner, where it is ignited and used to run the Turbine for driving the Pumps...!!! The exhaust of this Turbine was conventionally vented..... Russians had perfected the closed loop design - feeding the exhaust from the turbine to the Main Combustion Chamber - way back in late sixties and early seventies only.... Sergei Koreleyov (excuse the spelling), the chief designer of Rockets in erstwhile USSR, was the brain behind the closed cycle designs.... N1 would have been ready before Saturn V had it not been for the untimely death of Sergei Koreleyov (Spell check needed...!!!)....

A team from Lockheed Martin went to Russia in mid nineties to see if such a 'legendary' design really existed.... They wouldnt believe it just by seeing it.... So they requested Boris Yeltsin to send two engines to US for validating the performance parameters, which the Americans thought were simply unattainable..... To their surprise, the engine's seemingly "over-rated" performance parameters were indeed real.... NPO Energomesh (Spell check needed...!!) who honed the design of N1's successor NK-33 and RD-180 engines, later allowed their engines to fly the Atlas rocket (I dont remember the date but it was quite recently).....!!!! Ironically, it was a rocket pointed at USSR, during the cold war days, that was converted to a satellite launcher....!!!!
Thanks for the enlightenment

My wrong, I would definitely read more, sounds interesting
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  #39  
Old November 16th, 2007, 10:39 PM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

WOW! BE's galore ... Software? Aeronautical? Electrical? Dhurendherbhai ... Industrial? Masters or two ... perhaps?

Before I admit to being in AWE ... there is no copy/pasting here ... please assure me?

Please continue ... ... impressive ... very much impressed.
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  #40  
Old November 17th, 2007, 03:57 AM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

Quote:
Originally Posted by tantric_yogi
WOW! BE's galore ... Software? Aeronautical? Electrical? Dhurendherbhai ... Industrial? Masters or two ... perhaps?

Before I admit to being in AWE ... there is no copy/pasting here ... please assure me?

Please continue ... ... impressive ... very much impressed.
Dhurandhar is a plumber...aka a guy who earns his bread by having a little understanding of fluid flow
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  #41  
Old November 17th, 2007, 04:48 AM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhurandhar
plumber... understanding of fluid flow
Industrial then ... right? Civil ...

Resources? Couldn't possibly be sewage jk
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  #42  
Old November 17th, 2007, 06:53 AM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

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Originally Posted by tantric_yogi
Industrial then ... right? Civil ...

Resources? Couldn't possibly be sewage jk
In USA, pipeline/tubing is generally termed as "plumbing"...and therefore I am a plumber. So a plumber can be automotive/aerospace/mechanical/chemical or a civil engineer
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  #43  
Old November 7th, 2016, 07:43 AM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

nice gif visualisation!
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Old November 7th, 2016, 08:41 AM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

This has been the possibility since many thousands of years anyway. naya kya hai?
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Old November 7th, 2016, 03:45 PM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

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Originally Posted by prajapati View Post
This clearly shows that,.. tomorrow, if any such irregular shaped, hugh asteroid may come somewhere floating from the space,.....it may tie-in to the earth gravity, while passing closer to it, and with it's irregular shape, size and non-circular random, elliptical motions may hit the earth,.... or the Moon,... and we are D O N E ! The End.

Raam-naam satya hai,...
Murda bada mast hai....


Nova !
Another end of life on planet after that 65 mil yrs ago of Dinosaur age,...
and after another millions of years the earth will have to start from the scratch, if lucky that all other air, water, atmosphere, sun-light, 6 basic elements and other necessary thingies are still maintained,...


Or,... we will be Mars-2.
What happened to Mars-1?
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