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  #1  
Old February 24th, 2017, 04:43 AM
Amogh Amogh is offline
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Question Did career in defense lose itís attraction for youth during Nehru years?

Ashdocji,

I think this is certainly a thread for you.

I read somewhere that the strength of armed forces was cut down greatly when Nehru was the PM of India.

Did this discourage youth from joining armed forces? Did career in defense lose it's attraction for youth during Nehru years?

If yes, what circumstances restored the aura linked to this profession?
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  #2  
Old February 24th, 2017, 05:01 AM
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Re: Did career in defense lose itís attraction for youth during Nehru years?

It would be good if someone posts interesting links to this topic.
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  #3  
Old February 24th, 2017, 06:32 AM
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Re: Did career in defense lose itís attraction for youth during Nehru years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amogh View Post
Ashdocji,

I think this is certainly a thread for you.

I read somewhere that the strength of armed forces was cut down greatly when Nehru was the PM of India.

Did this discourage youth from joining armed forces? Did career in defense lose it's attraction for youth during Nehru years?

If yes, what circumstances restored the aura linked to this profession?
yeah , the army numbered only 4,00,000 during the nehru years . this is in contrast to it being 1.2 million now---exactly triple in strength . pay was not high and equipment was inferior quality . whatever few defence factories had been inherited from british rule were diverted to make other non defence related material .

officers were humiliated by government babus and army chief thimayya was humiliated by then defence minister v k krishna menon , due to which thimayya resigned but took back his resignation under nehru's pressure .

after the 1962 defeat the army was rapidly increased to more than 8,00,000 by 1971 war . pay was increased . new equipment was ordered . the defence budget increased greatly . after 1962 , v k krishna menon was removed from defence ministry and yashwantrao chavan was made defence minister . he was a maratha from satara district in maharashtra . satara is the maratha heartland---sunit also has his native place in that district---and many young men from that district join the armed forces . chavan rapidly built up the defence capabilities and india defeated pakistan in both 1965 and 1971 , which restored pride in joining the armed forces .

also the martial races theory was discarded . the british had this theory by which only select 'martial races' were allowed to join army . basically only those who were not nationalists were classified as martial races , which meant that loyalty to the british was the main criteria . most of these were sikhs and punjabi muslims . UP ,Bihar , maharashtra , bengal , south india were largely discouraged from joining the armed forces by the british . nehru's time did not see significant change in this as the army was very small anyway , though the punjabi muslims broke away to form the backbone of pakistani army after partition . punjabi hindus , jats , rajputs did start to join after independence , but the largest community remained sikhs . as 1984 came and the khalistan rebellion exploded , the sikhs were stopped from being recruited in large numbers .

only after the army was expanded after 1962 that marathas , biharis , UPites , south indians began to join . now UP gives maximum recruits , followed by jats from haryana . the air force and navy are encouraged to take recruits from states that do not contribute much to army . tamils , gujaratis , marwaris , sindhis do not join even then . while the other three are business communities and not expected to join , the tamils not joining is a worrying fact ; maybe they have some latent separatist tendencies....even the madras regiment is filled by malayalis---mostly nairs from kerala .
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Old February 24th, 2017, 09:05 AM
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Re: Did career in defense lose itís attraction for youth during Nehru years?

You didn't get my question. I will put it explicitly in layman's jargon. Imagine what Indian youngsters think during/after school/college. They have ambitions of becoming doctors, engineers, IAS officers, civilian pilots etc. What did they think of career in military during Nehru years? I didn't ask about recruitment policies. I asked what the population pool of potential candidates thought.

If 'Haqeeqat' movie is any authentic indication, then at least Punjab's youth was very enthusiastic about joining army even during that period.
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Old February 24th, 2017, 06:23 PM
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Re: Did career in defense lose itís attraction for youth during Nehru years?

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Originally Posted by Amogh View Post

If 'Haqeeqat' movie is any authentic indication, then at least Punjab's youth was very enthusiastic about joining army even during that period.
that is because the british had a calculated policy of allowing only punjabis in the army . the punjabis had helped them in the 1857 mutiny/national uprising while others like UPiites , biharis , marathas ( rani laxmibai of jhansi was maratha ) , bengalis had revolted . so they did not trust the others . but punjabis helped british crush the 1857 uprising . so the british practically banned the others from joining while only punjabis were encouraged . just after independence only punjabis were in the habit of joining the army . the others had long forgotten their martial traditions .

but as the army expanded after the 1962 debacle , others started joining in . this increased after 1984 khalistan rebellion because the government started distrusting the sikhs . so recruitment from punjab was not encouraged any more .
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Old February 24th, 2017, 06:28 PM
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Re: Did career in defense lose itís attraction for youth during Nehru years?

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Originally Posted by Amogh View Post
You didn't get my question. I will put it explicitly in layman's jargon. Imagine what Indian youngsters think during/after school/college. They have ambitions of becoming doctors, engineers, IAS officers, civilian pilots etc. What did they think of career in military during Nehru years? I didn't ask about recruitment policies. I asked what the population pool of potential candidates thought.
the common people were not interested in nehru years because pay was low , military had been deliberately forced to lose whatever prestige it had , and anyway there were not much jobs in the armed forces---the armed forces were kept small in size by nehru , so few jobs were available .
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Old March 3rd, 2017, 09:56 PM
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Re: Did career in defense lose itís attraction for youth during Nehru years?

Nehru was such a 'pacifist', he simply didn't want any army!??!
But even otherwise, the congress (not just Nehru) had a deep suspicion about the loyalty and overall integrety, esp. loyalty, of the armed forces-----------they feared a military junta-------and the 'events' in Pakistan gave further depth to their suspicion.
It took our congressis quite some time to realize that the ' indians' were totally different from the Pakis, and they had nothing to fear from the loyal Indian soldier.
Now that the BJP is IN power, the army a new era of Achhe Din has started to dawn on the armed forces.
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Old March 6th, 2017, 01:21 AM
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Re: Did career in defense lose itís attraction for youth during Nehru years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashdoc View Post
that is because the british had a calculated policy of allowing only punjabis in the army . the punjabis had helped them in the 1857 mutiny/national uprising while others like UPiites , biharis , marathas ( rani laxmibai of jhansi was maratha ) , bengalis had revolted . so they did not trust the others . but punjabis helped british crush the 1857 uprising . so the british practically banned the others from joining while only punjabis were encouraged . just after independence only punjabis were in the habit of joining the army . the others had long forgotten their martial traditions .

but as the army expanded after the 1962 debacle , others started joining in . this increased after 1984 khalistan rebellion because the government started distrusting the sikhs . so recruitment from punjab was not encouraged any more .
It was very strange war, if one can call that a war.
Sikh were fighting final battle with the Mughal Empire, they wanted to destroy whatever last vestiges of Mughal hegemony in India. So they stormed Delhi, defeated Mughals and desecrated Jama Masjid by eating pork and drinking wine.

Regarding recruitment, Millitary is and was still popular in traditional area of recruitment. Recruitment from Punjab didn't stop but army decided to be as diversified as possible and UP now gives maximum number of officers and Jawan same was not true in the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashdoc View Post
the common people were not interested in nehru years because pay was low , military had been deliberately forced to lose whatever prestige it had , and anyway there were not much jobs in the armed forces---the armed forces were kept small in size by nehru , so few jobs were available .
After division, millitary size was matching Pakistan all the time, Nehru has right fear seeing Ayub Khan become President, he graduated from the same academy of IMA Dehradun

Quote:
Originally Posted by rationalthinker View Post
Nehru was such a 'pacifist', he simply didn't want any army!??!
But even otherwise, the congress (not just Nehru) had a deep suspicion about the loyalty and overall integrety, esp. loyalty, of the armed forces-----------they feared a military junta-------and the 'events' in Pakistan gave further depth to their suspicion.
It took our congressis quite some time to realize that the ' indians' were totally different from the Pakis, and they had nothing to fear from the loyal Indian soldier.
Now that the BJP is IN power, the army a new era of Achhe Din has started to dawn on the armed forces.
But according to Millitary journals, Pt Nehru was first to overrule British C-in-C of the Army and sent forces to secure Poonch. The entire 48 war was heaped on us because Nehru wanted Kashmir. Patel never wanted Kashmir for India, it was muslim majority and hence no place of Indians.

jeetIAF
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Old March 6th, 2017, 09:56 AM
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Re: Did career in defense lose itís attraction for youth during Nehru years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amogh View Post
I read somewhere that the strength of armed forces was cut down greatly when Nehru was the PM of India.

Did this discourage youth from joining armed forces? Did career in defense lose it's attraction for youth during Nehru years?

If yes, what circumstances restored the aura linked to this profession?
If I remember correctly, the military used to be the first choice as a career for the youngsters till the 80s. It was from the 90s with the liberalization and multinationals and an aspirational middle class that the youth put money/benefits above all and the military got relegated. The other government jobs continued to be in demand but not military, because of limited scope for "upar ki kamai".
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Old March 7th, 2017, 01:02 AM
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Re: Did career in defense lose itís attraction for youth during Nehru years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeetiaf View Post
But according to Millitary journals, Pt Nehru was first to overrule British C-in-C of the Army and sent forces to secure Poonch. The entire 48 war was heaped on us because Nehru wanted Kashmir. Patel never wanted Kashmir for India, it was muslim majority and hence no place of Indians.

jeetIAF

The attack on Kashmir was in itself a western strategy to create a pro-west buffer between USSR and INDIA who were expected to form a very strong bond (Nehru's love for 'socialism' was well-known) which would have given USSR a cake-walk to the 'warm waters' of the Indian ocean which the Allies just didn't want-----they had effectively blocked them in Europe, and fairly well in East Asia!
Naturally, the British C-in-C was bound to be reluctant!
Sardar Patel too would have overridden the C-in-C, but Nehru WANTED Kasmir to be 'protected' by India, but totally independent for everything else (that was HIS 'Kashmiri Blood, and 'specialness' in action!) which Sardar would never have accepted!---------In fact, the 'special status' must have had been Nehru's condition/demand; after all, Hari Singh was so desperate for India's help, he could just never have DARED to ask for that special status!
--------------And, it was Jinnah and his party that wanted partition on basis of religion, not the Khangress, or any of the 'other' participants,including Ambedkar! So, India, even Sardar would definitely have fought for J&K.
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Old March 7th, 2017, 01:58 AM
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Re: Did career in defense lose itís attraction for youth during Nehru years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeetiaf View Post
It was very strange war, if one can call that a war.
Sikh were fighting final battle with the Mughal Empire, they wanted to destroy whatever last vestiges of Mughal hegemony in India. So they stormed Delhi, defeated Mughals and desecrated Jama Masjid by eating pork and drinking wine.

Regarding recruitment, Millitary is and was still popular in traditional area of recruitment. Recruitment from Punjab didn't stop but army decided to be as diversified as possible and UP now gives maximum number of officers and Jawan same was not true in the past.
sikhs wanted to take revenge for the conquest of their kingdom by the soldiers of UP and bihar under british leadership---their leaders may have been british but the common soldier of the so called bengal army which conquered the sikh kingdom after the death of maharajah ranjit singh was from UP and bihar . so the sikhs were thirsting for revenge of the destruction of their kingdom by the sepoys from UP and bihar whom they called purabiyas .

so when the sepoys of the bengal army ( recruited mostly from UP and bihar ) rose in revolt against the british , the sikhs took side of the british to kill those sepoys .
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Old March 7th, 2017, 02:01 AM
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Re: Did career in defense lose itís attraction for youth during Nehru years?

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Originally Posted by jeetiaf View Post

After division, millitary size was matching Pakistan all the time, Nehru has right fear seeing Ayub Khan become President, he graduated from the same academy of IMA Dehradun
indian army's size was matching pakistan's army , but equipment was inferior . anyway for india's large size and vast patrolling duties , the army was too small .
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Old March 9th, 2017, 03:57 AM
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Re: Did career in defense lose itís attraction for youth during Nehru years?

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indian army's size was matching pakistan's army , but equipment was inferior . anyway for india's large size and vast patrolling duties , the army was too small .
1965 was an unexpected war. Before 1965 our borders with Pakistan was open and people used to go travel to each other

Poorer equipment was due to policy of non-alignment. Pakistanis got aid, we had to buy

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Old March 9th, 2017, 08:34 AM
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Re: Did career in defense lose itís attraction for youth during Nehru years?

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1965 was an unexpected war. Before 1965 our borders with Pakistan was open and people used to go travel to each other

Poorer equipment was due to policy of non-alignment. Pakistanis got aid, we had to buy

jeetIAF
Need an elaborate analysis on effects of non-alignment.. from economic, defense and foreign policy perspectives.
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Old March 9th, 2017, 10:30 AM
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Re: Did career in defense lose itís attraction for youth during Nehru years?

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Need an elaborate analysis on effects of non-alignment.. from economic, defense and foreign policy perspectives.
No need for an elaborate analysis. It was a failure like many other policies if that era. Only beneficiary was indira gandhi who got to pose as a world leader and was even trying to get Nobel peace
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