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Old November 8th, 2009, 11:36 PM
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AKASH-SAM discussions

Originally posted by babu_hyderabadi
Quote:
by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 7th Nov 09
DRDO Missile Complex, Hyderabad

India’s long-criticised Akash anti-aircraft missile is now blazing towards success. Its counterparts in the DRDO’s Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme, the Prithvi and Agni ballistic missiles, were on target from the start; the anti-tank Nag missile will also enter service shortly; the Trishul short-range anti-aircraft missile was abandoned unceremoniously. Now, after years of rejection from the military, the Akash is being accepted as a world-class missile.

The IAF’s order last year for two Akash squadrons --- dismissed by sceptics as a face-saving burial for the Akash programme --- has just been doubled with a fresh IAF order for 16 more launchers that will be stationed in northeast India. And now, Business Standard has accessed even better news for the Akash programme: the Indian Army is considering ordering several Akash squadrons for its ground forces.

The DRDO’s Chief Controller for R&D, Dr Prahlada, has confirmed that the army is displaying fresh interest in the Akash. Asked for details, Dr Prahlada told Business Standard, “I cannot say whether the army is interested in the Akash for its strike corps, or for another role. In any case, the Akash is a mobile system that is suitable for various roles.”

But protecting fast-moving tank columns from enemy fighters is what the Akash does best. For years the DRDO laboured to fit the entire Akash system --- including radars, missile launchers and command centres --- into T-72 tanks. This provided the Akash with the cross-country mobility to advance deep into enemy territory along with Indian Army strike corps, shooting down enemy fighters at ranges as far out as 25 kilometers.

Planned as a replacement for the army’s obsolescent Russian SAM-6 Kvadrat, the heart of an Akash missile battery is the Hyderabad-developed Rajendra phased-array radar that tracks up to 64 enemy fighter aircraft simultaneously, in a radius of 60 kilometers. The mobile command centre selects up to four of the most threatening air targets, and two Akash missiles are fired at each from the T-72 based Akash launchers, which move alongside. The Rajendra radar continuously guides the missiles, eventually “flying” them smack into the enemy fighters.

Theoretically, a “ripple” of two Akash missiles has a 99% chance of shooting down a modern fighter aircraft. Practically, however, in 9 live Akash trials so far, all 9 missiles that were fired hit their targets. Videos of the firing trials, witnessed by Business Standard, show the Akash missiles smashing their targets into tiny fragments at ranges beyond 20 kilometers.

The DRDO has taken 20 years to develop the cross-country mobile, tank-mounted version of the Akash missile system that the army is now interested in. Criticism of this delay has been vocal, but the DRDO counters by pointing to the quality of its product: the Akash, says the DRDO, is the only system of its kind available globally.

A top DRDO scientist at the missile complex in Hyderabad points out, “Western countries like France, which make missiles in the technological league of the Akash, don’t mount the entire system on a tank, something that the Indian Army insists on. Only the Russians build tank-mounted missile systems, but their missile technology is far inferior to that of the Akash. All that the Russians can offer today is the next generation of the Kvadrat.”

The defence PSU, Bharat Electronics Limited, is the nodal production agency for the Akash missile system, supported by a broad consortium of Indian public and private sector manufacturers who contribute components and sub-systems. Bharat Dynamics Limited manufactures the solid-fuel, two-stage, ramjet Akash missile itself.
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Old November 9th, 2009, 12:25 AM
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Re: AKASH-SAM discussions

here is the detailed article about army and air-force requirement abot quick-reaction, medium and long-range SAM requirements: http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ndia/akash.htm
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Old November 9th, 2009, 01:17 AM
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Re: AKASH-SAM discussions

too much enthusiasm from Mr....what his name is...prahlada or whatever...

AKASH was shoved into armed forces ass after it became the most expensive individal missile programme of India and other SAM-related acquistion recently went into some problems (like the DERBY etc)...armed forces need to modernize their SAM area like never before....reason why its deployed in N-E? well fighters cannot fly in these 'hilly' regions hugging close to ground...

in any case.....the text of news can be expected from a specialized defense newspaper...what it is called again...ohhh 'business standard'....no doubt the rajendra radar is 'hyderabadi'..poor bengaluru scientists from LRDE...they must be cursing 'business standard'

now DRDO guyz dint sandwich the radars,launchers atc etc in a t-72 tank...well as the news article claims...I guess what they meant was 't-72 tank chassis'...infact it would be damnn exciting if you guyz can actually get me pics of this setup...everything on a single T-72 chassis ie the missile launchers, command center and ofcourse the Battery level radar....all in one !!!

again the % kill has been sligtly exaggerated...its 98.5% for a 'ripple' of two and 88% for a single launch...moreover..does the video that 'business standard' saw about missile "smacking" into target was of supersonic target decoys doing 8g+ evasive maneuvers with significant ECM capabilities + chaff dispensers?

in any case...how much time will it take a DERBY system or parallel like that to be mounted on a tank/bmp chassis?

moreover...'business standard' failed to tell us whether it is a quick reaction SAM or not...something that is extremely important for an armoured column because low-flying aircraft appear from nowhere from horizon to attack armoured vehicles an lie undetected from ground-based radar because of their flight profile ....It is the reason, IMO, why mr prahalada doesn't know whether the missile are for strike corps or not...because for strike-corps they need extremely quick reaction SAM's that can also go deep into enemy territory....something the AKASH boasts off.....in any case, rajendra guiding the missile on its entire course (as claimed by paper) that is tracking (not scanning) target means it is highly vulnerable to anti-radiation missiles ....geeeeeesh....if rajendra can pick up a aerial target from 60kms...a fighter aircraft can pick up a rajendra from 100+kms and kill (say a HARM agm-88) it from a distance of 48kms or a KH-58/31 at a distance of 110+ kms!!..something is wrong with the article..not missile...too much enthusiasm.

I guess DRDO saying that this is the only kind of system available internationally is the fact that its mounted on a tank-chassis ...or may be its because it uses RAMJET technology...(latter is a better explanation)....

btw what is the minimum distance on engagement and at what minimum height?

anyways good news for DRDO if it gets new orders....infact they should....considering AKASH can carry a tactical nuclear warhead....it can very well take out a formation of aircrafts by going way-off target detonating its payload and 'SMACKING' targets with EMP's

lets see how many 'foreign' customers DRDO gets for producing "ONE-OF-THE-KIND STATE-OF-THE-ART-BETTER-THAN RUSSIA-AND-FRANCE" SAM!!!
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Old November 9th, 2009, 02:19 AM
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Re: AKASH-SAM discussions

discussion on the same topic ,somewhere else-

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/bom...ss-league.html
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Old November 9th, 2009, 02:32 AM
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Re: AKASH-SAM discussions

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Originally Posted by ashdoc View Post
discussion on the same topic ,somewhere else-

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/bom...ss-league.html
gimme login and password..seems like I have exceeded the number of posts I can see/day
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Old November 9th, 2009, 03:30 AM
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Re: AKASH-SAM discussions

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gimme login and password..seems like I have exceeded the number of posts I can see/day
why dont you sign up ??
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Old November 9th, 2009, 04:00 AM
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Re: AKASH-SAM discussions

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Originally Posted by ashdoc View Post
why dont you sign up ??
I cannot open gmail/yahoo and other email accounts from here and seems they are needed to complete registration
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Old November 14th, 2009, 04:35 AM
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Re: AKASH-SAM discussions

India's Akash missile gets another order
Published: Nov. 12, 2009 at 11:00 AM


The Indian army is set to order an unspecified number of Akash anti-aircraft missiles to replace its aging Russian SAM-6 Kvadrat air defense missile system.

The missile system is for the T-72 main battle tank and has a Hyderabad-developed Rajendra phased-array radar capable of tracking up to 64 aircraft simultaneously over a radius of just under 40 miles. It can shoot down aircraft within 15 miles, according to Indian media reports.

The Akash is part of India's Integrated Guided Missile Development Program. Its main target will be use against attacks from unmanned combat aerial vehicles including Cruise missiles and aircraft.

The order is another win for the BEL consortium set up in January 2008 by two Indian public sector companies -- Bharat Dynamics Ltd and Bharat Electronics Ltd. -- and which included private-sector firms specifically to manufacture the medium-range Akash missiles.

BEL tied up with Larsen & Toubro, Tata Power, Walchand Industries and ECIL. But Bharat Dynamics is the actual manufacturer of the solid-fuel, two-stage, ramjet Akash missile.

BEL signed its first major order in January this year when the Indian air force placed an order for two squadrons of the missile, according to a report in the national newspaper The Hindu.

The newspaper also noted that the Indian air force had had performance reservations about the missile. Specifically, the air force wanted a smaller, lighter missile with a longer range and that was more maneuverable, according to The Hindu. The missile also does not have a seeker, but batch-by-batch improvements and enhancements are planned.

Analysts have said that one Akash missile has an 88 percent probability of kill. But two missiles fired five seconds apart raises this to 98.5 percent. The payload is reportedly around 140 pounds.

The Akash has been developed by the Defense Research and Development Laboratory, which will oversee the weapon system integration and provide support throughout the missile's 20-year lifecycle.

The missile is in the same class as the U.S. Patriot, Israel's Barak and the U.K. SAM system, the article said. It is around 19 feet long, weighs 1,550 pounds and travels at nearly 2,000 feet per second, according to India's Business Line newspaper.

The air force's missiles are being delivered over three years.

Development of an indigenous defense missile has taken around 20 years, and criticism of the project has been harsh at times because of this.

Similar criticism has been leveled at the Defense Research and Development Organization over development of the Arjun Tank, of which the army only recently agreed to take 124 examples to replace some of its older Russian-made T-90 tanks.

The Arjun has been 35 years in the making, and getting the first batch operational has been a battle in itself, lasting a decade, according to a report in the Hindustan Times newspaper last May.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/n...p?newsid=11889
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Old November 14th, 2009, 04:58 AM
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Re: AKASH-SAM discussions

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Originally Posted by ashdoc View Post
The missile also does not have a seeker, but batch-by-batch improvements and enhancements are planned.
same news, noh? see I told ya...the missile has been shoved up into armed forces a$$es after trishul-development failed...people I know say that DRDO should actually stop using IGMDP program name (always used in media by as blah-blah year old IGMDP prog) and coin a new term to deceive public and improve DRDO's brand image. And I totally agree
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Old November 14th, 2009, 05:25 AM
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Re: AKASH-SAM discussions

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Originally Posted by ashdoc View Post

The missile is in the same class as the U.S. Patriot, Israel's Barak and the U.K. SAM system, the article said. It is around 19 feet long, weighs 1,550 pounds and travels at nearly 2,000 feet per second, according to India's Business Line newspaper.
I hope the class here only refers to dimensions....

I am missing gayaguzra#1 now
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Old November 14th, 2009, 11:40 AM
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Re: AKASH-SAM discussions

about the barak -8 which india intends to codevelop with israel-

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/n...p?newsid=11890
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Old November 14th, 2009, 05:05 PM
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Re: AKASH-SAM discussions

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Originally Posted by sprite View Post
same news, noh? see I told ya...the missile has been shoved up into armed forces a$$es after trishul-development failed...people I know say that DRDO should actually stop using IGMDP program name (always used in media by as blah-blah year old IGMDP prog) and coin a new term to deceive public and improve DRDO's brand image. And I totally agree
see the test results before talking, 9 out of 9 hits.
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Old November 14th, 2009, 05:19 PM
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Re: AKASH-SAM discussions

Quote:
Originally Posted by sprite View Post
too much enthusiasm from Mr....what his name is...prahlada or whatever...

AKASH was shoved into armed forces ass after it became the most expensive individal missile programme of India and other SAM-related acquistion recently went into some problems (like the DERBY etc)...armed forces need to modernize their SAM area like never before....reason why its deployed in N-E? well fighters cannot fly in these 'hilly' regions hugging close to ground...
thank god you have not become a strategist for our Air Operations.

Quote:
in any case.....the text of news can be expected from a specialized defense newspaper...what it is called again...ohhh 'business standard'....no doubt the rajendra radar is 'hyderabadi'..poor bengaluru scientists from LRDE...they must be cursing 'business standard'
LDRE might be the agency that developed the radar but DRDO has always been the agency that integrates the systems.

Quote:
now DRDO guyz dint sandwich the radars,launchers atc etc in a t-72 tank...well as the news article claims...I guess what they meant was 't-72 tank chassis'...infact it would be damnn exciting if you guyz can actually get me pics of this setup...everything on a single T-72 chassis ie the missile launchers, command center and ofcourse the Battery level radar....all in one !!!
along with that why dont u ask the pic of a Aircraft carrier, destroyer, cruiser , corvette all rolled into one fitting on a patrol boat.

Quote:
again the % kill has been sligtly exaggerated...its 98.5% for a 'ripple' of two and 88% for a single launch...moreover..does the video that 'business standard' saw about missile "smacking" into target was of supersonic target decoys doing 8g+ evasive maneuvers with significant ECM capabilities + chaff dispensers?
here they donot mention the way the testing was done, and the fact that the army accepted the system shows the testing was done as per the requirements.

Quote:
in any case...how much time will it take a DERBY system or parallel like that to be mounted on a tank/bmp chassis?

moreover...'business standard' failed to tell us whether it is a quick reaction SAM or not...something that is extremely important for an armoured column because low-flying aircraft appear from nowhere from horizon to attack armoured vehicles an lie undetected from ground-based radar because of their flight profile ....It is the reason, IMO, why mr prahalada doesn't know whether the missile are for strike corps or not...because for strike-corps they need extremely quick reaction SAM's that can also go deep into enemy territory....something the AKASH boasts off.....in any case, rajendra guiding the missile on its entire course (as claimed by paper) that is tracking (not scanning) target means it is highly vulnerable to anti-radiation missiles ....geeeeeesh....if rajendra can pick up a aerial target from 60kms...a fighter aircraft can pick up a rajendra from 100+kms and kill (say a HARM agm-88) it from a distance of 48kms or a KH-58/31 at a distance of 110+ kms!!..something is wrong with the article..not missile...too much enthusiasm.
Not everything would be put in open domain.
Quote:
I guess DRDO saying that this is the only kind of system available internationally is the fact that its mounted on a tank-chassis ...or may be its because it uses RAMJET technology...(latter is a better explanation)....
If u see the link that i provided they had it based atop a truck as well as a Tank body. And the fact that the Army selected the one with tank body should point out a fact that they need tank based missiles.
Quote:
btw what is the minimum distance on engagement and at what minimum height?
at altitudes up to 18,000 m from wiki article.

Quote:
anyways good news for DRDO if it gets new orders....infact they should....considering AKASH can carry a tactical nuclear warhead....it can very well take out a formation of aircrafts by going way-off target detonating its payload and 'SMACKING' targets with EMP's

lets see how many 'foreign' customers DRDO gets for producing "ONE-OF-THE-KIND STATE-OF-THE-ART-BETTER-THAN RUSSIA-AND-FRANCE" SAM!!!
I am happy as long as we save precious Foreign Exchange.
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Old November 14th, 2009, 11:31 PM
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Re: AKASH-SAM discussions

Quote:
Originally Posted by BABU_HYDERABADI View Post
see the test results before talking, 9 out of 9 hits.
Babu, these 'hit' test falls under various categories

1. To test ECM stuff (in aerial scenario), an ECM pod powered by batteries is suspended in air using balloons at a distance and missile is smacked into it.

2. remote-controlled pilotless vehicles (notably nishant for its low-cost) are employed to test effectiveness against mobile targets (and you know how maneuverable they are)

3. live-testing is done without the missile carrying a warhead and is jammed in terminal stages i.e checking maneuverability and ability to lock-on again after dis-engaging a target due to various reasons.

Now how many tests were conducted in 3rd environment is something AKASH website needs to publish

Now as I have said in some post, the flight profile of an aircraft makes a lot of difference is now how a radar picks up signals and passes it on to the firing mechanism.

Best I can say is that AKASH still needs to cover a lot of ground . its a good start and the programme is lucky that it survived because recently DRDO woke up and has set-up joint ventures with israel and MBDA for these stuff. Considering there has been a delay in acquisition of SAM's from 2006 on due to varios reasons and armed forces are getting pretty nervous in north-east sector especially the IAF which has deployed Su's and has problems protecting them from possible air-raids...

Reg rajendra, Integrating a radar with the system needs synergy between both parties i.e developers of radar and the system on which it is going to get integrated.LRDE falls under drdO...so question about DRDO stepping in doesn't come..it has labs nationwide...currently REVATI is being fitted in a frigate in bombay docks and when I visited there to meet my friends, there were atleast scientists and tecnicians from 5 different institutions for testing and integrating the system.

18K is maxaimum height you quoted babu..I am asking for minimum engagement height and distance i.e the missile wont be able to kill a target in booster phase. So what is the minimum distance of engagement. This is important as a low-flying aircraft will appear now-ehere from horizon from mountains in north-east (and you know rajasthan deserts) and a attack-chopper (apache class) can hover behind tree-tops and fire their hellfires on armoured vehicles.
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Old November 15th, 2009, 06:18 AM
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Re: AKASH-SAM discussions

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Originally Posted by BABU_HYDERABADI View Post
thank god you have not become a strategist for our Air Operations.


Quote:
along with that why dont u ask the pic of a Aircraft carrier, destroyer, cruiser , corvette all rolled into one fitting on a patrol boat.
ekjacktly my friend!! By just mounting systems on chassis these guys are claiming that their stuff is world apart (minus ramjet)...my question is when Israeli radar can get mounted on IL-76 then how long before a spyder or a python will take to get mounted on these platforms? India has good experience with thes suspension of T-72's and BMP's.

Quote:
here they donot mention the way the testing was done, and the fact that the army accepted the system shows the testing was done as per the requirements.
Testing. Sir, most of the testing is in wind-tunnel testing to test aerodynamics of system. You think, say astra, has been tested in air to perform a 40G dive? Next is gathering data from flight-tests. Armed forces but 10's of millions of dollars of simulation softwares from phoren (mostly) and some local big-shot IT players. All this data (wind-tunnel testing and flight testing) is fed into system and 10's of scenario are created using technical information of enemy's systems (technical info that public doesn't know...all military espionage stuff)..and that is from where you get this 88% first hit and 98.5% multiple-launch kill statistics. Technically they dont test missiles with a gap of 5 seconds as such except sometime is user-testing but statistics are all generated in these armed forces simulation softwares. I am sure you knew about this. All these war-scenarios etc generated by these robust softwares. Also our MRCA deal, the contenders will be running these simulations on their own softwares platform in their country of origin by pitching their aircrafts vis-a-vis aircrafts around
the world.

Quote:
Not everything would be put in open domain.
ekjacktly my friend. Most of radar systems have system that is only switched on in case of 'situations'...enemy is always flying its EW platforms near borders and attempts to listen to these RADARS...every time RADARS are switcked in 'war' mode and it is registered with authorities in military establishment. Also in peace-time they are switched on in these special modes only when its known that EW platforms are not nearby and listening to them. All in all, tomorrow I will tell try to tell you how these mobile radar systems fool incoming radiation missiles. Pretty difficuly for static radar stations to escape even after switching off their transmission. these smart weapons locks on to targets from great distance through secondary on-board locking mechanisms.

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If u see the link that i provided they had it based atop a truck as well as a Tank body. And the fact that the Army selected the one with tank body should point out a fact that they need tank based missiles.
yeah..basically cross-country terrain compatiblity


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I am happy as long as we save precious Foreign Exchange.
that is why I say, joint-collaborations...DRDO has lost the credibility (recently ALH crash which was blown out-of-proportion as ALH is working good here) and by getting into joint-ventures it can very well start getting into eyes of arm importers
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Last edited by sprite; November 15th, 2009 at 06:41 AM.
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