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Old July 4th, 2011, 09:50 AM
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Talking Lokpal : Congress hides behind Constitution

And now the congress is hiding behind the Constitution,one more excuse for the lokpal bill

Missing replies from Cha

But no problem Marvibhai is there
Quote:
New Delhi: The government was committed to tabling the anti-corruption Lokpal bill in parliament's monsoon session beginning Aug 1 but won't rewrite the constitution for the legislation, Home Minister P. Chidambaram said on Monday.
Addressing a media conference, a day after an all-party meeting agreed that a "strong and effective" bill should be introduced in the next session of Parliament, Chidambaram was noncommittal on when the legislation would be passed because it would have to be referred to a standing committee for broader consensus.
This means that Lokpal (ombudsman) bill would have to wait for the winter session in mid-November to be passed.
"We will bring (the) bill in the monsoon session of parliament. That bill will be examined according to established procedures... Members of parliament desire to follow the established procedures," the Home Minister said at the press conference that was also addressed by Human Resource Development (HRD) Minister Kapil Sibal and Parliamentary Affairs Minister P.K. Bansal.
Chidambaram was categorical in saying that the final draft bill would be in accordance with the constitution of India as the government didn't consider it as "an occasion to rewrite the constitution".
He said an "aspect" established at the all-party meeting was that the bill must be within the constitution.
"We are drafting a bill and the bill will be within the constitution. That point was emphasised more than once (in the meeting)," he said.
Asked whether referring the bill to a standing committee would mean a delay, at least till the winter session, in seeing the measure through, HRD minister Sibal said: "We had said we are committed to bring the bill. We will keep the promise. We never said it would be passed in the monsoon session."




The all-party meeting was part of the government's efforts to evolve a consensus on the anti-graft bill after it failed to do so in the meetings of a joint drafting committee comprising five nominees of social reformer Anna Hazare and five central ministers.
The drafting panel was divided on several issues, including inclusion of the prime minister and the judiciary under the purview of the proposed Lokpal. Two drafts of the proposed bill have thus emerged.
Chidambaram clarified that it was not the draft prepared by the ministers on the panel that will be submitted to parliament. He said this draft would be refined to be allowed to follow "established procedures".
"What was presented (at the all party meeting) is a draft. It will go to departments and ministries concerned. It will be sent to the nodal ministry (before being referred to the cabinet). The cabinet will finalise the draft. The draft approved by the cabinet will be introduced in parliament."
Chidambaram said that the "government is very happy with the all-party meeting yesterday".
"It took place in a very cordial atmosphere. And we are confident that we can take the process forward, bring the bill in the monsoon session and try to get it passed as soon as possible," he said.
Asked about Hazare's threat to launch a hunger strike from Aug 16, in case the bill was not made into law by then, Chidambaram said it was "premature" to predict what would happen in the future as the government will bring the bill that "will satisfy the vast majority of this country".
"Why do you consider it (fast) as inevitable? I don't think we should assume. It is too premature," he said.
The home minister played down the differences within the Congress-led United Progressive Alliance (UPA) over the issue, saying the ruling combine was "not a political party".
"It is a coalition. There will be some differences. It only means that we should talk and arrive at a consensus."
http://news.in.msn.com/national/arti...5262276&page=0
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  #2  
Old July 4th, 2011, 12:06 PM
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Post Re: Lokpal : Congress hides behind Constitution

swami, no no no You are not supposed to try to bait me ..., I will not be taken by your bait


But for information of all of you, here is a graphic by tehelka.com. And by the way, you are supposed to look at the graphic and decide on your own. I will not do the thinking for you


Quote:
Over two months back, Anna Hazare's fast forced the government to act on corruption at high places. The outpouring of public anger resulted in the government setting up a joint panel to draft a new Lokpal Bill. Bull the effort looks to have gone wasted, as the civil society group and the ministerial group still differ on the most crucial 20 points to curb corruption.Here is a comparison of their opinions.



MORE DETAILS HERE
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Last edited by echarcha; July 4th, 2011 at 12:08 PM.
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  #3  
Old July 4th, 2011, 12:14 PM
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Re: Lokpal : Congress hides behind Constitution

I cant believe you posted this

Hope your password is safe


Quote:
Originally Posted by echarcha View Post
swami, no no no You are not supposed to try to bait me ..., I will not be taken by your bait


But for information of all of you, here is a graphic by tehelka.com. And by the way, you are supposed to look at the graphic and decide on your own. I will not do the thinking for you
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  #4  
Old July 4th, 2011, 12:25 PM
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Re: Lokpal : Congress hides behind Constitution

Why is it that Kangress wants the total control of the Lokpal to be with the government? Because they know Congress Bureau of Investigation (CBI), all other ministries are under control, so PM or any minister is not affected by any charges or investigations. They can simply have somebody resign and give them another post after a year or two.

Kangress has been hiding behind the Constitution for very long now. On many occasions, they have refused to discuss or amend the Constitution created in their interest.
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Old July 4th, 2011, 12:31 PM
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Re: Lokpal : Congress hides behind Constitution

Even if it was another party in power, you have to yourself look at what we have in the Constitution and what the Lokpal Bill proposes.

Initially, such knee jerk reactions and quick fix solutions seem very appealing but they come with their own consequences.

Just a few months ago, one of the courts was advocating castration for rapists. It may sound very fair and just punishment, but it is barbaric and archaic. Today castration for rape, tomorrow cutting off hands for robbery and so on.

So the point here is, yes we need some anti corruption means and laws but can we first look at our own Constitution, see if we can make amendments, see if we can incorporate some valid changes into it by referring the Lokpal bill, etc.

Dont jump the gun, dont demonise the party in power and take 'emotional' actions.
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Old July 4th, 2011, 12:41 PM
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Re: Lokpal : Congress hides behind Constitution

You mean to say the demands by the civil society is unrealistic ?
A look at what you posted tells what the congress wants,they just dont want anyone to stop them from corruption.


Quote:
Originally Posted by echarcha View Post
Even if it was another party in power, you have to yourself look at what we have in the Constitution and what the Lokpal Bill proposes.

Initially, such knee jerk reactions and quick fix solutions seem very appealing but they come with their own consequences.

Just a few months ago, one of the courts was advocating castration for rapists. It may sound very fair and just punishment, but it is barbaric and archaic. Today castration for rape, tomorrow cutting off hands for robbery and so on.

So the point here is, yes we need some anti corruption means and laws but can we first look at our own Constitution, see if we can make amendments, see if we can incorporate some valid changes into it by referring the Lokpal bill, etc.

Dont jump the gun, dont demonise the party in power and take 'emotional' actions.
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  #7  
Old July 4th, 2011, 01:52 PM
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Re: Lokpal : Congress hides behind Constitution

Quote:
Originally Posted by swami View Post
You mean to say the demands by the civil society is unrealistic ?
A look at what you posted tells what the congress wants,they just dont want anyone to stop them from corruption.
Since you are hell bent on it, let me take one point -

A government official requires time to finish his work, say on a file. Now I understand that officials demand bribes to finish the work. However, you cannot say that a work has to be finished in stipulated time else jail time. Many times, a file, for example a building proposal file, is not handled or within authority of a single official. It has to go up and down the ladder of hierarchy to get various approvals.

Now Lokpal bill wants jail time for errant officials who do not complete this work, but it does not make provision to define the stipulated time and other factors. Like, how much time should a certain process take? If there are other official factors which hamper the file at one desk, then what are the provisions for stopping the Lokpal tic-toc stopwatch and genuinely resort that issue? For example, an official really falls ill. Then does Lokpal arrest him in hospital for neglecting a file?

See swami ji, your Lokpal bill has good intentions but when it comes to enacting a law, you need to provide all use cases and provisions. Even a condemned man has an automatic appeal process defined for the Supreme Court and finally President of India.

If the law, like section 302 just said 'You will hang to death for murder' then what about the appeals process, Supreme Court, etc. etc.

So, yes, make demands for 'changes' in existing laws or make new laws but why not provide proper provisions for all use cases?
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Old July 4th, 2011, 02:00 PM
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Re: Lokpal : Congress hides behind Constitution






Quote:
Originally Posted by echarcha View Post
Since you are hell bent on it, let me take one point -

A government official requires time to finish his work, say on a file. Now I understand that officials demand bribes to finish the work. However, you cannot say that a work has to be finished in stipulated time else jail time. Many times, a file, for example a building proposal file, is not handled or within authority of a single official. It has to go up and down the ladder of hierarchy to get various approvals.

Now Lokpal bill wants jail time for errant officials who do not complete this work, but it does not make provision to define the stipulated time and other factors. Like, how much time should a certain process take? If there are other official factors which hamper the file at one desk, then what are the provisions for stopping the Lokpal tic-toc stopwatch and genuinely resort that issue? For example, an official really falls ill. Then does Lokpal arrest him in hospital for neglecting a file?

See swami ji, your Lokpal bill has good intentions but when it comes to enacting a law, you need to provide all use cases and provisions. Even a condemned man has an automatic appeal process defined for the Supreme Court and finally President of India.

If the law, like section 302 just said 'You will hang to death for murder' then what about the appeals process, Supreme Court, etc. etc.

So, yes, make demands for 'changes' in existing laws or make new laws but why not provide proper provisions for all use cases?
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Old July 4th, 2011, 07:01 PM
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Re: Lokpal : Congress hides behind Constitution

Anna ji's Lokpal Bill is similar to what Atal ji's draft had proposed in 2001, with PM and MPs under Lokpal. NDA and BJP this time around too hv sought a strict Lokpal Bill with PM under purview of Lokpal, Annaji after meeting with BJP leaders reported satisfaction. Congress draft seeks to keep both MPs and PM out of Lokpal saying they can be investigated by CBI, but knowing how CBI is under the thumb of ruling party that means no MP or PM will be punished, so many precedents r there in which the case was closed after dragging on for 1-2 decades.

Problem with UPA now is that all the crooks are ruling the roost, many from the South, not that there are no good people, with the PM donning role of Gandhi ji's 3 monkeys - see, hear and speak no evil . AK Antony, Mani Shankar Aiyar, come to mind as some of the few honest guys.

sutradhar ji, good comparison of the proposed drafts posted by you.
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Old July 4th, 2011, 08:58 PM
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Re: Lokpal : Congress hides behind Constitution

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Originally Posted by Parijataka View Post
Anna ji's Lokpal Bill is similar to what Atal ji's draft had proposed in 2001, with PM and MPs under Lokpal. NDA and BJP this time around too hv sought a strict Lokpal Bill with PM under purview of Lokpal, Annaji after meeting with BJP leaders reported satisfaction. Congress draft seeks to keep both MPs and PM out of Lokpal saying they can be investigated by CBI, but knowing how CBI is under the thumb of ruling party that means no MP or PM will be punished, so many precedents r there in which the case was closed after dragging on for 1-2 decades.

Problem with UPA now is that all the crooks are ruling the roost, many from the South, not that there are no good people, with the PM donning role of Gandhi ji's 3 monkeys - see, hear and speak no evil . AK Antony, Mani Shankar Aiyar, come to mind as some of the few honest guys.

sutradhar ji, good comparison of the proposed drafts posted by you.
What happened to that 2001 bill.
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Old July 4th, 2011, 09:48 PM
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Re: Lokpal : Congress hides behind Constitution

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Originally Posted by sgars View Post
What happened to that 2001 bill.
Failed in to get passed in both houses I think (not sure) - would have been like turkeys voting for Christmas. Same fate might befall this Bill as well.

Here is a link to news at that time when the Bill was presented in 2001 under NDA by Vasundhara Raje -

Lokpal Bill introduced in LS for eighth time

By Our Special Correspondent
NEW DELHI, AUG. 14 2001. The Lokpal Bill, seeking to check corruption in high places in the Government, including the office of the Prime Minister, was introduced in the Lok Sabha today.

The much-awaited but often-delayed bill was introduced by the Minister of State for Personnel and Pension, Ms. Vasundhara Raje Scindia, amid noisy scenes over alleged police excesses at a DMK rally in Chennai.

The Lokpal will inquire into complaints alleging that a public functionary has committed an offence punishable under the Prevention of Corruption Act, 1988. The ``public functionary'' will cover the Prime Minister, the Ministers, the Ministers of State, the Deputy Ministers and the Members of Parliament. Other constitutional functionaries such as Judges of the Supreme Court, the Election Commissioners have been kept out of the purview of the bill.

etc...
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Old July 4th, 2011, 10:38 PM
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Re: Lokpal : Congress hides behind Constitution

One question - When bill was introduced during Vajpayee tenure, why did no 'social activist' fast unto death?
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Old July 4th, 2011, 11:19 PM
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Re: Lokpal : Congress hides behind Constitution

Because he (Vajpayee) wanted the bill to be introduced and implemented and was not hiding like the congress is doing now

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One question - When bill was introduced during Vajpayee tenure, why did no 'social activist' fast unto death?
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Old July 4th, 2011, 11:27 PM
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Re: Lokpal : Congress hides behind Constitution

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Originally Posted by swami View Post
Because he (Vajpayee) wanted the bill to be introduced and implemented and was not hiding like the congress is doing now
and also because sarkar did not do gaban of thousands of crores.. now to divert the attention Sonia maata is exposing Hindu babas and temples.. just see first Ramdev baba then Sai baba and now this Kerala temple..

Tirupati temple next methinks.. Gult pride in trouble.. hmm. RSS and BJP have to take action about this disturbing trend.

Last edited by sarv_shaktimaan; July 4th, 2011 at 11:40 PM.
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Old July 5th, 2011, 07:05 AM
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Re: Lokpal : Congress hides behind Constitution

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Originally Posted by sarv_shaktimaan View Post
and also because sarkar did not do gaban of thousands of crores.. now to divert the attention Sonia maata is exposing Hindu babas and temples.. just see first Ramdev baba then Sai baba and now this Kerala temple..

Tirupati temple next methinks.. Gult pride in trouble.. hmm. RSS and BJP have to take action about this disturbing trend.
Nops TTD is controlled by Govt which is run by ...

Last edited by sgars; July 5th, 2011 at 08:27 AM.
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