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  #1  
Old November 12th, 2007, 06:12 PM
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Exclamation In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

Reading news ... few weeks ago ... Russia and the US signed some sort of agreement to jointly search for water on the moon and nearby walking distance planets like mars.

Wait a moment ... Man landed on the moon 50 or so years ago ... it has been 50 years! I thought we proceeded to other planets cause we new everything there was to no about MOON. And we still don't know if there is water on the moon? I thought moon had no atmosphere. Didn't scientists spent money and years investigating and doing research on MOON ROCK samples brought back by astronauts with much fanfare?

Watching TV ... I recall having watched an interview with some NASA retiring guy ... sometime last year. He said among many other things ... all the computers combined together, you see in moon landing NASA movies, had power no more than or equivalent to a laptop ... today's pc or laptop!

Really? With existing technology and latest inventions it takes an hour for Shaktimanbhai to download a 2 hour movie on to his laptop. And with a laptop ... 50 years ago ... so ... with the aid of laptop you landed on the moon and brought astronauts back to the earth safely; world saw them on the screen, wives communicated with husbands and all this due to a laptop with the technology available 50 years ... less than 1 % of today.


I don't subscribed (or is it prescribe) to conspiracy theories ... but I do know when things make no sense.
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Old November 12th, 2007, 09:09 PM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

reports for search of water on Mars has got me confused.Sometimes they say they have found so much ice beneath the surface of Mars that lake of Michigan can be filled twice sometimes they say reports need to be confirmed.Anyways there is no such doubt about what following picture suggests:- There is indeed water on Mars!!
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  #3  
Old November 12th, 2007, 09:37 PM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

yeh I asked for it.

No serious ... it will be easier if you try to convince me 2 plus 2 does not add up to 4. I will gladly accept your supposition.

One of the astronauts who landed on the moon ... I cannot remember which of the two ... said or did I read it in a book ... there was less technology involved in moon landing module than in a $15 Casio watch.

So ... let's see now ... with technology available 50 years ago ... lesser than that of a $ 15 Casio watch ... moon landing module detached itself from the mother ship ... headed straight to the moon ... found just the right spot to land ... landed ... men got off the module ... took sharp pictures ... got back on the module ... fired started the engines ... got off the surface of the moon ... drove back to the mother ship ... attached itself.

You guys here own and discuss about some of the most expensive and technically advanced cars available today ... try parking both front and rear wheels aligned precisely 6 inches to the curb ... try ... just try.

And we still don't know if there is water on the moon ...
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Old November 12th, 2007, 11:40 PM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

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Old November 13th, 2007, 02:49 AM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

Quote:
Originally Posted by tantric_yogi
Reading news ... few weeks ago ... Russia and the US signed some sort of agreement to jointly search for water on the moon and nearby walking distance planets like mars.

Wait a moment ... Man landed on the moon 50 or so years ago ... it has been 50 years! I thought we proceeded to other planets cause we new everything there was to no about MOON. And we still don't know if there is water on the moon? I thought moon had no atmosphere. Didn't scientists spent money and years investigating and doing research on MOON ROCK samples brought back by astronauts with much fanfare?

Watching TV ... I recall having watched an interview with some NASA retiring guy ... sometime last year. He said among many other things ... all the computers combined together, you see in moon landing NASA movies, had power no more than or equivalent to a laptop ... today's pc or laptop!

Really? With existing technology and latest inventions it takes an hour for Shaktimanbhai to download a 2 hour movie on to his laptop. And with a laptop ... 50 years ago ... so ... with the aid of laptop you landed on the moon and brought astronauts back to the earth safely; world saw them on the screen, wives communicated with husbands and all this due to a laptop with the technology available 50 years ... less than 1 % of today.


I don't subscribed (or is it prescribe) to conspiracy theories ... but I do know when things make no sense.
This just means (and it is a fact) that mankind is losing touch with reality by relying too much on computers

Today kids can be ace at software and yet struggle when asked to compute (1 - ( x/(x-1) ) )...fractions are the Achilles' heel of an average US student in science and engineering
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Old November 13th, 2007, 10:31 AM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

To reach Moon and and other places in solar system, more than trajectory computation done using computer or even by hand calculator/logarithm book), one needs good and robust rocket engineering.

US space exploration (read rocket technology) started with German know-how and innovation. Those were the days when Wernher von Braun, a rocket scientist with Nazi Germany who designed the first ever ballistic missile - V2 rocket- in human history. After the war, Braun surrendered to the Americans, got himself out of Germany through is contacts, and immigrated to US where he pursued his dream of creating rockets that could put satellites around Earth or even take man to the moon.

Braun and his team of mostly germans from his team back home from Germany sucessfully tested a rocket that could launch a earth orbiting satellite, one year in advance to even Russian Sputnik was launched. He single handedly founded the premier Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL). His know how and expertise on rocket technology was phenomenal at that time and years ahead of similar US home grown technology of the time. Due to political reasons Brauns teams pitch of putting a satellite did not win the government funding which went to US homegrown Vanguard team. The Vanguard rocket failed miserably (team of sceintists raced against time and quality suffered) in its first trial itself forcing US president Eisenhover to consider Brauns team. Brauns team was able to put the first US satellite into space and was instrumental in building the technology for US manned mission to Moon.

So US rocket technology has considerable German contribution. And Germany rocket technology was driven by War. In my opinion, pure engineering innovations like that of rockets can only be driven by men who have the engineering bent of mind and in a war like environment. US has many years of peace and the rocket technology instead of becoming more reliable and stable has suffered incidents like Challenger and Columbia disasters. US has built some good space shuttles but the basic rocket technology still remains largely what Braun has left behind.

US has done some great innovation in computer technology, but when it comes to original innovation in engineering Germany and Japan take the cake.

So Tantu that is why I think, why US still did not progress from Moon landing after almost 50 years. No war, not much innovation in basic rocket technology.
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Old November 13th, 2007, 10:51 AM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

Also the competition of putting the first satellite into Earth orbit by US and USSR (USSR won in Sputnik), was driven by the desire to outsmart each other in the Cold War environment of the era. Even though US had the know how (in Braun's team), US was hesitating as putting a satellite into space has legal ramifications at that time. Legal aspect of where the territorial air space ends and where the universal air space begins were not defined. US (president Eisenhover) wanted to pursue the satellite-rocket technology for pursuing spying and they did not want to give USSR a justification to attack/launch counter offensive on spying charges unless the legal aspects were sorted out. This gave USSR time to Sputnik ahead of US claiming their "technological supremacy". But this act of USSR kind of helped US as they now need not worry about legal aspects as USSR already did the crime .

Sputnik galvanized public support and interest towards space exploration - and people now have a different war to confront - that of technlogical supremacy. This is the kind of environment that pure engineering like that rockets needs. It needs interest, big time funding and encouragement from the government.

Nowadays people are no more interested like they were about the space and moon in 60s. So the government itself is taking its sweet time for things like manned mission to Mars and asteroid exploration.
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Old November 13th, 2007, 11:15 AM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

US made phenomenal innovations in computer technology, pharmaceuticals/medicine, basic research in sciences like physics etc., but so did other nations.

But when it comes to real engineering and designe like automobiles (Germany and Japan), rocket engineering (Germany, USSR), Nuclear engineering (Oppenheimer, Einstein and other Germans), I wonder if US had anything original. One can say that all who innovated are americans, but lets not forget that US itself has tried these things during pre-war and mass migration of 60s without much success.
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Old November 13th, 2007, 12:20 PM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2gud
To reach Moon and and other places in solar system, more than trajectory computation done using computer or even by hand calculator/logarithm book), one needs good and robust rocket engineering.


So Tantu that is why I think, why US still did not progress from Moon landing after almost 50 years. No war, not much innovation in basic rocket technology.
Dhurendherbhai ... how dare I disagree with you ... look around you here at echarcha.com ... ids taking on own personal personalities and the perks.


2Gudbhai ... BhaYa ... rocket science will take you to the moon ... you need a bit more than Casio watch technology to do stuff I quoted in 2nd post above (or is it below).

Ok .... 2Gudbhai ... I will you have your way ... rocket engineering you say ... fine. Now explain me this cause I can find none at Google.

You heard and read of famous pen ... Aldrin's famous pen incident abroad lunar landing module.

I come back in a while ... sorry. Got to go

edit/add: Sorry BhaYa.

We all heard of famous pen incident. I think originated from Aldrin and Armstrong never denied it. Getting dressed to land on the moon surface ... something went wrong and a pin ... important pin or a knob something ... came off. Anyway ... when they returned back in to the lunar landing module ... found knob or the pin missing ... shit ... we're doomed for life here on moon . Not so fast ... As the legend goes ... Buzz Aldrin had a bright idea ... per the legend ... he was carrying a pen ... no not a pencil but pen the kind which will leak and soil your shirt at high altitudes (now don't ask me why was he carrying a pen cause I don't know ... to sign autographs for throngs of little moon people waiting for them to land ... perhaps) ... anyway ... he inserted the pen inside the missing pin/knob hole to start the engines or something of sort. Something like one of your laptop keys went mising and you used pen to press it to type. Wonderful ... pen saved the day.

Now ... 2Gudbhai ... help me out. Lunar module ... if as you said was all engneering marvel of rocket science ... must have weighed at least a thousand kilos to be able to carry two full sized adults? Billions of dollars at stack ... life of two good men hanging on a thread ... and they did not provide them with a little pouch of few phillips, screw drivers, couple of pliers, a soldering gun ... fu(k all that ... how about a swiss knife? Nothing. What if Adrin did not carry that little pen?

My 35 year old Hyundai car came with pliers, set of screw drivers, tire repairing kit, pillows, blankets and couple of towels. Billion dollars and not even a swiss knife?

ALL I am saying is ... we know what they want us to know ... we know shit.
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Last edited by tantric_yogi; November 13th, 2007 at 01:29 PM.
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Old November 13th, 2007, 01:30 PM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

2Gudbhai ... help me out ... I tried found no answers googling.
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Old November 13th, 2007, 02:07 PM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

Quote:
Originally Posted by tantric_yogi
2Gudbhai ... help me out ... I tried found no answers googling.
I have read about that felt tip pen incident somewhere.It was not that that was the last resort.Even if that would not have worked,NASA had some other solution ready.Only thing is their departure would have been delayed by a few hours.
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Old November 13th, 2007, 02:48 PM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

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Originally Posted by Napolean
I have read about that felt tip pen incident somewhere.It was not that that was the last resort.Even if that would not have worked,NASA had some other solution ready.Only thing is their departure would have been delayed by a few hours.
Really! I did not know that ... on a mission where every drop of fuel(!) and every second of time was calculated and accounted for ... from landing to take off ... and Nepalibhai ... you're telling me they had hours to spare?

Really!

And we still don't know if there is water on the moon.
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Old November 13th, 2007, 03:02 PM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

Quote:
Originally Posted by tantric_yogi
Really! I did not know that ... on a mission where every drop of fuel(!) and every second of time was calculated and accounted for ... from landing to take off ... and Nepalibhai ... you're telling me they had hours to spare?

Really!

And we still don't know if there is water on the moon.
ok...How much delay it would have caused,I still need to confirm that.But anyways here is the link :-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_11
And here is the text :-

While moving in the cabin Aldrin accidentally broke the circuit breaker that armed the main engine for lift off from the moon. There was initial concern this would prevent firing the engine, which would strand them on the moon. Fortunately a felt-tip pen was sufficient to activate the switch.[16] Had this not worked, the Lunar Module circuitry could have been reconfigured to allow firing the ascent engine
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Old November 13th, 2007, 03:19 PM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

Quote:
Originally Posted by tantric_yogi
Now ... 2Gudbhai ... help me out. Lunar module ... if as you said was all engneering marvel of rocket science ... must have weighed at least a thousand kilos to be able to carry two full sized adults? Billions of dollars at stack ... life of two good men hanging on a thread ... and they did not provide them with a little pouch of few phillips, screw drivers, couple of pliers, a soldering gun ... fu(k all that ... how about a swiss knife? Nothing. What if Adrin did not carry that little pen?

My 35 year old Hyundai car came with pliers, set of screw drivers, tire repairing kit, pillows, blankets and couple of towels. Billion dollars and not even a swiss knife?

ALL I am saying is ... we know what they want us to know ... we know shit.
TY bhai, I never told that rocket engineering can alone put us on moon/mars and bring us back home. But it is the single crucial thing needed to even get your ass a few meters above the ground.

I have given you the main reasons in my other two replies- there is no competition or nations outsmarting each other, people and government are less interested in space exploration than they were in 60s. So it is not the technology but the will.
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Old November 13th, 2007, 04:56 PM
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Re: In search of water ... Moon and the Mars

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2gud
To reach Moon and and other places in solar system, more than trajectory computation done using computer or even by hand calculator/logarithm book), one needs good and robust rocket engineering.

US has done some great innovation in computer technology, but when it comes to original innovation in engineering Germany and Japan take the cake.

So Tantu that is why I think, why US still did not progress from Moon landing after almost 50 years. No war, not much innovation in basic rocket technology.
SR-71 was made entirely in USA....so is that private plane and rocket combo by Burt Rutan

Just because you do not know of advances in rocket technology does not mean that they don't happen
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