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View Poll Results: Will Pakistan Survive as a Nation ??
1) Yes, it will surve on its own, somehow 4 18.18%
2) No, it will break up in several pieces. 8 36.36%
3) Yes, it will survive as proxy of other nation. 9 40.91%
4) Other (pls explain) 1 4.55%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

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  #16  
Old August 17th, 2010, 04:19 AM
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Re: Can Pakistan survive as a nation?

Pakistan will not break down in pieces because it has no strong minority and is bound in name of Islam.

Western World will never let Pakistan break and create another small states with nuclear capabilities like former USSR. It will make it easy for countries like Cuba, North Korea, Iran to access the forbidden know how.

Even other Islamic countries would not want Pakistan to break as it is working as a scapegoat for them too. If Pakistan breaks there will be need for the Muslim brothers to be taken care of and no Islamic country wants the herd of uncivilized kabailee mentality Muslin brethren on their soil.

Besides it is easy to use Pakistani soil to cultivate hatred for Western countries, thus keeping them in constant fear and panic and on other hand keep Western Allied minds diverted while they themselves have a free reign to create trouble for Israel.
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  #17  
Old August 17th, 2010, 04:38 AM
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Re: Can Pakistan survive as a nation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kkkk View Post
you are saying the powers that be only want to foment trouble for India...
that doesnt make sense from chinese angle though. Pakistan is too friendly with China. As of today, helping pakistan also almost equates helping those killing british and american troops in afghanistan...
Pakistan might act to be too friendly with China but the red dragon is no fool. It will act friendly with Pakistan because China has no interest in Pakistan, no competition either. Their borders do not pose direct military threat to each other nor is Pakistan in anyway capable of doing that. There is no harm for China to keep Pakistan in good books, rather a win win situation. China knows India will never be strong enough to oppose its dubious actions about Arunachal and infiltration in Indian Sia Chin region if there is a hostile nation that is friendly to China on its Western border. It is just a matter of dushman ka dushman apna dost situation.

British and American govts. are no fools either. They knew the war in Afganistan will be a lost cause because Afaganistan is destroyed beyond repair. There were times after Nazibullah was killed and USSR retreated from Afganistan when NATO would have intervened and made a positive change but they had no interest so didi not do what was needed to be done. Rather they played dumb and let Taliban and Laden come to the power. THey just had to save the face after 9/11 and hence started a war with no backout strategy.

Now the war is not just about saving face, it is about billions of dollars of contracts, with many top brasses having wasted interests. Now even America and England does not know what they are doing in Afganistan besides giving security to Hamid Karzai and getting killed.
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  #18  
Old August 17th, 2010, 05:25 AM
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Re: Can Pakistan survive as a nation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashdoc View Post
also when china conquered tibet , india could have backed the tibetian rebels openly by not accepting tibets inclusion in china.

at that time the western powers like america , australia and britain were ready to back us if india supported an armed insurgency in tibet.

We were a very young nation at that time. The idea of siding with gora nations against "neighbours" may not have found acceptance; just guessing, of course.

if we had allied with US in this china would not have attacked a nation under US protection.

and we created double trouble by accepting the dalai lama .......this infuriated china anyway ,and in the end ,it did attack us.

look at pakistan ,when the soviet union invaded afghanistan ,if openly backed the mujahaddin ,even though the soviet union was a superpower , and far more powerful than china.

thus it has far more chutzpah and daring than weak ,plodding india.


Do we still have that image?


the world aknowledges this and takes its side.......
...................
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  #19  
Old August 17th, 2010, 05:25 AM
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Re: Can Pakistan survive as a nation?

I think we are overrating this "solidarity due to Islam" factor. I mean, regionalism and maladministration is going to figure big some sooner or later.

Pakkidost, your posts basically say that rest of world won't let Pakistan sink completely because the world needs a cesspit whoever wants some dirty work done, finds a willing partner in Pakistan ? right?

Well, IMO, pakistan is not just a bundle of misguided policies and bad intents. It is also "PEOPLE". For people to stay together as a society, some framework is needed. When the framework itself crumbles, people will get scattered for a while, then re-group and either rebuild the framework, or find an alternative framework.
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  #20  
Old August 17th, 2010, 05:58 AM
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Re: Can Pakistan survive as a nation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pakkidost View Post
Pakistan might act to be too friendly with China but the red dragon is no fool. It will act friendly with Pakistan because China has no interest in Pakistan, no competition either. Their borders do not pose direct military threat to each other nor is Pakistan in anyway capable of doing that. There is no harm for China to keep Pakistan in good books, rather a win win situation. China knows India will never be strong enough to oppose its dubious actions about Arunachal and infiltration in Indian Sia Chin region if there is a hostile nation that is friendly to China on its Western border. It is just a matter of dushman ka dushman apna dost situation.

British and American govts. are no fools either. They knew the war in Afganistan will be a lost cause because Afaganistan is destroyed beyond repair. There were times after Nazibullah was killed and USSR retreated from Afganistan when NATO would have intervened and made a positive change but they had no interest so didi not do what was needed to be done. Rather they played dumb and let Taliban and Laden come to the power. THey just had to save the face after 9/11 and hence started a war with no backout strategy.

Now the war is not just about saving face, it is about billions of dollars of contracts, with many top brasses having wasted interests. Now even America and England does not know what they are doing in Afganistan besides giving security to Hamid Karzai and getting killed.
well, Chinas Act has turned into actions a number of times. China needs to harbour Pakistan as an ally against India so I dont think its just an act. Dushman ka dushman, apna dost is just about right.

I am getting confused with the two theories -
1) British and American govts. are no fools either.
2) Now even America and England does not know what they are doing in Afganistan besides giving security to Hamid Karzai and getting killed.
I think both of these contradict each other.

That is beside the point though. The point is that Brits and Yanks know that Pakis support taliban officially and yet keep supporting them, financially and otherwise. I dont think this help is just to foment trouble for India because this theory simply plays into hands of China - who the west surely see as a bigger competition/threat than India.
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  #21  
Old August 17th, 2010, 06:35 AM
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Re: Can Pakistan survive as a nation?

Pakistan will survive for sure even though its formed on wrong note. But the question is how functional a nation can it be? Any government, land and its people will survive but they would be dysfunctional; like its the situation right now, like it had always been.

Pakistan has focused too much on terrorism that it failed to see that the people living in the nation are the same people who will help to hold the nation together. It did not realize that investing in the infrastructure of the nation is the primary goal and not war/crime/hatred.
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  #22  
Old August 17th, 2010, 06:51 AM
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Re: Can Pakistan survive as a nation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raniraja View Post
...................We were a very young nation at that time. The idea of siding with gora nations against "neighbours" may not have found acceptance; just guessing, of course.

then how come pak ,which was equally young , sided with goras ?...........in any case this was due to nehru's quest for ' greatness ' ,in which he wanted to be known as icon of peace ,and militaristic ideas were anathema to the image that he was building for himself.


Do we still have that image?

yeah ,the weak and tepid response to the mumbai terror attacks proved our effeteness before the whole world.

recently obama said that china was to look after the subcontinent ,or words to that effect..........thus virtually handing over india to china's sphere of influence.......an acknowledgement of india's weakness.


............................
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  #23  
Old August 17th, 2010, 07:51 AM
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Re: Can Pakistan survive as a nation?

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Originally Posted by raniraja View Post
What is खतना ??
Circumcision.
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  #24  
Old August 17th, 2010, 07:52 AM
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Re: Can Pakistan survive as a nation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakhi View Post
Pakistan will survive for sure even though its formed on wrong note. But the question is how functional a nation can it be? Any government, land and its people will survive but they would be dysfunctional; like its the situation right now, like it had always been.

Pakistan has focused too much on terrorism that it failed to see that the people living in the nation are the same people who will help to hold the nation together. It did not realize that investing in the infrastructure of the nation is the primary goal and not war/crime/hatred.
as amitabh said in Mr Natwarlal - ye Jeena bhi koi jeena hai lalloo? investing is the keyword. for money to keep rolling in for building infrastructure, something has to happen. If they were only interested in their own well being and development, nobody will help them with money, consequently no infrastructure will be built... it will be self-defeating for them.
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  #25  
Old August 17th, 2010, 08:24 AM
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Re: Can Pakistan survive as a nation?

Quote:
then how come pak ,which was equally young , sided with goras ?...........in any case this was due to nehru's quest for ' greatness ' ,in which he wanted to be known as icon of peace ,and militaristic ideas were anathema to the image that he was building for himself.
I think that at the time of independence, there were a lot of goras in the armies on either side. I read somewhere that the British Officers in Pakistan had full knowledge of "invasion of Kashmir by the tribals". Whereas India tried to get rid of the goras as much as possible, and tried to reduce dependence on all things British, Pakistan leaned towards them for more and more support at all times.

Also, Nehru wasn't alone in his idealistic dreams and securing a place in history. Gandhiji with his stupid ideas of "fairness" about the Rs. 55 crore screwed us first. He set the roadmap for Pakistan to get the funds anyhow and then use them for militant purposes.

Quote:
Do we still have that image?

yeah ,the weak and tepid response to the mumbai terror attacks proved our effeteness before the whole world.

recently obama said that china was to look after the subcontinent ,or words to that effect..........thus virtually handing over india to china's sphere of influence.......an acknowledgement of india's weakness.
But for all that chutzpah and guts and glory, where is Pakistan today? Since they didn't pay much attention to nation-building, they have ended up losing their independence to various vested interests.


Quote:
Originally Posted by einstein View Post
as amitabh said in Mr Natwarlal - ye Jeena bhi koi jeena hai lalloo? investing is the keyword. for money to keep rolling in for building infrastructure, something has to happen. If they were only interested in their own well being and development, nobody will help them with money, consequently no infrastructure will be built... it will be self-defeating for them.
What would that something be, einsteinji?
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  #26  
Old August 17th, 2010, 09:03 AM
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Re: Can Pakistan survive as a nation?

Here's something that reinforces my argument that Pakistan has lost the diplomatic edge over India, temporarily at least.

Quote:
Flooded Pak sings new tune on India, battles trust deficit for world aid
Chidanand Rajghatta, TNN, Aug 17, 2010, 08.00pm IST

WASHINGTON: With almost one-fifth of the country reeling from floods, Pakistan has said its homegrown terrorists have overtaken the Indian Army as the greatest threat to its national security, even as Islamabad battles overcome the world’s trust deficit to win desperately needed aid.

The sudden turnaround in downgrading the Indian ''threat,'' reportedly contained in a recent internal assessment of security by the country’s spy agency Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), comes only weeks after the country’s military supremo Pervez Ashfaq Kayani rebuffed Washington’s efforts to highlight the threat of home-grown terrorism while insisting India remained the principal enemy.

The ''recent'' undated assessment, leaked by a senior ISIofficial to the Wall Street Journal, allocates a ''two-thirds likelihood of a major threat to the state coming from militants rather than from India or elsewhere.'' Evidently, it is the first time since Independence that India isn’t being viewed as the top threat.

The purported rethink, received leerily in Washington and New Delhi, comes amid catastrophic floods that has devastated Pakistan and generated talk about the country’s very survival. Some reports say nearly a quarter of the country – an area the size of Great Britain – is affected by floods, and there is fearful speculation that extremists will have a run of the place because of government apathy and inefficiency.

Pakistan’s civilian rulers have tried to highlight this aspect to drum up more aid from world community, but till last weekend its appeal was met with skepticism given Islamabad’s own dodgy use of militant groups to further its strategic depth, a concept which Kayani defended till recently. But that depth now appears to have been washed away; on Tuesday, Pakistan faced the mortifying spectacle of Afghanistan giving it $ 1 million in flood aid, even as it sat on India offer of $ 5 million in aid with more to follow.

The neighbourly concern from countries that Pakistan has tried to undermine for long is in sharp contrast to the indifference, based on suspicion about Islamabad’s bona fides, from most of the world community. As of last weekend, the Indian aid offer topped France ($ 1.5 million), Germany ( $ 2.4 million), Italy ( $ 1.8 million) , Netherlands ( $ 1.3 million). Sweden ($ 3 million), and a host of other wealthy countries.

International experts attribute the cautious and tentative response by the world community to the trust deficit – as also donor fatigue -- arising from the Pakistani establishment’s deep and long ties to terrorism. "We note often an image deficit with regards to Pakistan among Western public opinion," Elizabeth Byrs, spokeswoman of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, bluntly stated over the weekend, even as she and other experts questioned the logic of punishing millions of flood victims for the policies of the country's militarized establishment.

Pakistan's image deficit became evident in the poor response to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s appeal for $ 10 individual donation through text messages for flood relief – an effort that brought in only thousands of dollars in the first few hours compared to the millions which rolled in for the Haiti earthquake and tsunami relief funds.

Similarly, a German lawmaker who is trying to raise money for Pakistan complained to Der Spielgel that he had so far been met with two types of reactions: "Some fear their money will help extremists. Others say: If Pakistan would spend less money on its efforts to arm itself with nuclear weapons then it would have enough money to manage the catastrophe."

Pakistan appears to have gotten the message – or at least is pretending that it did – going by the disclosure of its new threat assessment that runs contrary to what its Armychief insisted only weeks ago – that India remained a bigger threat than home-grown terrorists.
Hell..I would hate Pakistan getting lovey-dovey with us. All the pinkos singing "aman ki asha" and all that will now beg to allow more "victims" and "talent" from Pak... let them go to Afghanistan, after all, Pak supported Afghans a lot during their troubled days.
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  #27  
Old August 17th, 2010, 09:21 AM
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Re: Can Pakistan survive as a nation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raniraja View Post
I think that at the time of independence, there were a lot of goras in the armies on either side. I read somewhere that the British Officers in Pakistan had full knowledge of "invasion of Kashmir by the tribals". Whereas India tried to get rid of the goras as much as possible, and tried to reduce dependence on all things British, Pakistan leaned towards them for more and more support at all times.

Also, Nehru wasn't alone in his idealistic dreams and securing a place in history. Gandhiji with his stupid ideas of "fairness" about the Rs. 55 crore screwed us first. He set the roadmap for Pakistan to get the funds anyhow and then use them for militant purposes.

But for all that chutzpah and guts and glory, where is Pakistan today? Since they didn't pay much attention to nation-building, they have ended up losing their independence to various vested interests.


What would that something be, einsteinji?
something like spewing terrorism and getting money to control it.
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  #28  
Old August 18th, 2010, 05:21 AM
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Re: Can Pakistan survive as a nation?

The income distribution in the plains of India, especially Punjab, Haryana and western uttar pradesh is even, rural and urban per capita is almost same.
In Pakistani Punjab, land distribution is not done adequately; rural property is still in the hand of selected few.
Actually in 1937 elections, congress rejected muslim leagues offer to form joint government in united provinces (Uttar Pradesh) not only because they had absolute majority but also because league was pro-landlord
So there is possibility of peasant revolution not much.

Pathans of NWFP are other people who actually trace themselves to afghan tribes especially pashtoons who forms majority of afghan tribes living in Pakistan plus one million afghan refugees living in Peshawar who migrated at the time of soviet invasion and changed demographics of that region. They are second in majority in Pakistani army so if world found out through wiki leaks that Pakistani military is supporting jihadis, it was always expected

Sindhis (Hindus and Muslims) always had good relations, you can find majority of hindu population lives in sindh, but majority of anti Hindu people have entered in this region called mohajirs, there is regular blood bath in Karachi due to this, mohajir versus sindhis

Baluchistan is most resource rich state and still poorest, biggest gas reserve sui is in Baluchistan, economically it is Pakistani Jharkhand or Orissa resource rich but still poor. Baluchis feel that they didn’t receive dividends of development like Punjabis got, to certain extent there disgust is similar to Maoists in India

These are present day condition in Pakistan and Indians should monitor these developments cautiously, it is too early to pass judgment on the situation but failed Pakistan will never be good for India


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  #29  
Old August 18th, 2010, 05:47 AM
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Re: Can Pakistan survive as a nation?

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Originally Posted by ashdoc View Post
............................

Non aligned movement

Can’t say whether it was right or not

But there were few benefits of it as well

Firstly, Indians never got their soldiers killed in some one else’s war, you got them killed in your own war, no power whether its soviets and American were able to use as pawn in their power game.

We had good relation with pro USSR and pro American countries; we had Israelis and Soviet support in almost all the wars and all the time.
For example, when IAF got Mirage-2000s and Jaguars which were French and Anglo-French in origin in 1985 and 1981 respectively almost at the time when cold war was at peak.

Thirdly whatever might have happened in India, we never had much of foreign intervention, democracy survived wars and emergency, in India no general was appointed by the will of some other country like Pakistan, no martial law and subsequent troubles.

Because all the counties who were aligned like Egypt, Israel, Pakistan, libya, majority of them had internal troubles because of their alignment with super power, which we never had


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Old August 18th, 2010, 06:33 AM
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Re: Can Pakistan survive as a nation?

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Originally Posted by kkkk View Post

I am getting confused with the two theories -
1) British and American govts. are no fools either.
2) Now even America and England does not know what they are doing in Afganistan besides giving security to Hamid Karzai and getting killed.
I think both of these contradict each other.

.
What I meant to say was (as far as I understand international politics) before US allies started war in Afghanistan they had no intentions of being there for the sake of people of Afghanistan nor they had huge plans of rebuilding Afghanistan and liberating it from the clutches of Taliban. They just wanted to quickly uproot Taliban with mighty force and in the process take Laden in custody. They had no plans to stay there for so long. They just had the immediate need of showing their people they would go full throttle against the enemies of US and allies.

But it became messy when billions of dollars of security contracts came in play, when personal greed of vice-president level politicians got involved. (hope you remember Dick Cheney?). Now they cant pull back even if they want too.

You still think what i wrote earlier was contradictory?
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