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Old June 30th, 2004, 05:21 AM
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Angry Time Ticking Bomb - Hindu Agony to translate into Hindu Militancy

No one in his right mind can ever condone the carnage, both the initial one at Godhra railway station in February 2002 and its response in the rest of Gujarat in the months following. By all means it was reprehensible. Though it was neither the first nor the worst, even one life lost in communal violence is one too many.

The question we need to address is “Why was Hindu so angry?” - the same Hindu whose tolerance is so legendary. Why was the response to Godhra incidence so brutal? However we might deny, burning of sixty Hindus trapped inside a railway bogey, horrendous as it is, is not the sole cause that led Gujarat to this carnage. And Hindu anger is not limited to Gujarat alone. It has echo of support from Amritsar to Chennai and from Mumbai to Kolkata. The Godhra incident, at best, lit the fuse to the time bomb that had been ticking for a long time.

Unless we are willing to delve deeply into the real cause, such acts of violence will keep on repeating, probably even more frequently. If one goes for treatment to a doctor, he looks not only at current affliction and inquires not only the history of the patient but also his family. Why?

The powers that be would like us to believe that India was born on 15th August 1947 and prior to that it was just some empty landscape. Out from somewhere a Mahatma appeared and a nation was born. Unfortunately, that is not so. India existed long before that. If we want to know what ails India, what causes such outbursts of Hindu anger, we have to dig deeper into its past like a doctor goes into family history.

The fact is that since 712 CE, when Muhammad bin Kasim invaded Sindh and let the reign of terror loose, India has been repeatedly terrorized, raped and plundered. Hindus were captured, taken out of the country, sold like vegetables in foreign markets, massacred by the millions, forced to convert, made to live as slaves, and denied even their basic right to practice their own religion in their own country. The contemptible jaziya was imposed time and again. Hindu women were raped, ravished, abducted and massacred; again by the millions. Hindu temples, by the tens of thousands, were demolished, desecrated, and plundered. Idols were ripped of their silver, gold and jewels; were broken into pieces, and shipped to far off places to be kept in front of mosques so that the faithful can tread upon them. Mosques were built upon demolished temples or from materials obtained from them. This was not done to create a composite culture. These atrocities on Hindus went on for centuries and the vandals, with great glee, recorded all these as something to be proud of.

Scholars like Alberuni went on to write:

"Mahmud utterly ruined the prosperity of the country, and performed such wonderful exploits, by the which Hindus became like atoms of dust scattered in all directions, like a tale of old in the mouth of the people."

This is a very mild description of what went on for centuries. Other descriptions are blood curdling. They are so well known that this is not the place to repeat them here.

It is also no secret that Hindu civilization had caused no harm to have been subjected to such horrendous acts of vandalism. This was completely unprovoked.

The current wisdom is that if we turn a blind eye to all that happened in the past, every thing will be hunky dory. Is that so? If it were the nature of civilizations to forget the past, neither would the Hindus be celebrating Vijaya Dashmi every year nor the Shias be beating their breasts every Muaharram. The truth is that a civilization as long as it is alive does not forget either the good or the bad. Civilizations have long memories.

The present situation, to a large extent, has been brought upon us by our own people, especially those who go under the banner of "secularists". They have whitewashed the vandalism of their own nation. Not only have they removed all traces of Hindu suffering from the nation's history books, they have gone on to justify them. They have made the victims of the most horrendous crimes against humanity look as the perpetrators. They have denied Hindus their "Muharram". They have denied the Hindus their heritage. Secularists' pronouncements on the Godhra tragedy "the Hindus had it coming" or "they invited it upon themselves" is typical of their cynicism, and complete lack of any objectivity and sensitivity. When Babri Masjid was demolished, did they proclaim that since the Muslims had demolished so many Hindu temples, they had it coming?

I don't know what their agenda is but they cannot be ignorant of the facts of history because they have access to all the books written by the real perpetrators of these crimes.

What can be done to assuage the agony of the Hindus?

Firstly, the history books should reflect the facts of history as they took place. History should not be converted into fiction to please some whims or new found political correctness.

Secondly, we should accept that the Muslims of today are not responsible for acts of vandalism of the past. Having said that, the Muslims need to disassociate themselves from the plunderers and vandals of India. And as they are not responsible for or should not have any association with the past acts of vandalism, they also cannot be owners of the property built from such vandalism. If they claim such property, that would mean that they justify and condone the carnage done to the Hindus. In that case, there can be no solution to the problem. Some rights have no time limits especially where civilizational ethos is involved.

Thirdly, we should do what will go a long way to heal the agony of the Hindus. We should go through the records maintained by those vandals, and return all the buildings -- not just three -- that were built on or from material obtained by demolishing Hindu temples or other monuments. As stated previously, the Muslims of today have no right on them. The mosques under this category also should fall in the same class as other monuments like Red Fort or Qutub Minar or Fatehpur Sikri -- to cite just a few. The Muslims don't own these monuments. The same should be true of other buildings. The Muslims should hand over all such buildings to the government of India. They all need not be demolished and should not be demolished (except for two more, for which the Hindus have deep religious sentiments) -- they are part of our history. They are living embodiment of the story of Hindu agony. All these should be converted into a countrywide museum of Hindu holocaust.

What we need is serious introspection of Hindu agony. Our "secularists" have asked us to take proverbial Ostrich like approach and bury our heads in sand. This is not going to work. Hindu agony needs to be addressed. The dark period of India's history needs to addressed with grave concern and in its proper perspective.
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Old June 30th, 2004, 08:09 AM
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Re: Time Ticking Bomb - Hindu Agony to translate into Hindu Militancy

Quote:
Originally posted by Satyam
Hindu agony needs to be addressed. The dark period of India's history needs to addressed with grave concern and in its proper perspective.
Ok.. so how do we do it? Or do we behave like the SC/ST and dalits who want special privileges for atrocities that were commited decades ago..

What privileges do we want? Kill anyone that is non hindu and not be held accountable? What exactly do we want to do?

You are right.. history is full of people terrorising others.. be it Hitler, or the spanish inquisition or Mohammad bin kasim.. do you think the average hindu even knows the history beyond his her IDOL.. shivaji for maharashtrians to Ambedkar for dalits, and even that not fully?

So what exactly do you propose satyaam? Giving a history class here does not seem to be your agendaa. Your agenda is again, hate mongering.. you do not want to justify what happend in Gujrat riots but the next para, you go ahead and do just that.. hindu anger.. what hindu anger.. I am a hindu.. I do not seem to be angry on anyone. Why the fukk would I care what happend in 712 CE? those were the days when jiski laathi us ki bhainse was basically the rule. Our hindu warriors where out numbered or chickend out.. so thats that..

What exactly is your agenda?
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Old June 30th, 2004, 10:54 AM
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hinduon ke saath wahee hua jo wo deserve karate the.
Hindu historically gundfatt, gaddar, selfish aur bante hue rahe hain. baate karwalo aur pholisophy jhadwa lo - us se kucch nahee ukhadtaa... kutta toh laat hee khaayega aur fir bhee poochh hilayega - kutta kabhee sher nahee ho sakataa. sammaan sirf shaki-shaali ki dharohar hai kutto ki nahee - unke hisse me gulaami hee hotee hai.

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Old June 30th, 2004, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zen
hinduon ke saath wahee hua jo wo deserve karate the.
Hindu historically gundfatt, gaddar, selfish aur bante hue rahe hain. baate karwalo aur pholisophy jhadwa lo - us se kucch nahee ukhadtaa... kutta toh laat hee khaayega aur fir bhee poochh hilayega - kutta kabhee sher nahee ho sakataa. sammaan sirf shaki-shaali ki dharohar hai kutto ki nahee - unke hisse me gulaami hee hotee hai.

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Don't completely agree with that. Chanakyaa showed that hindu power could be harnessed. The problem with hindus is major divide in the society.. tu chamar.. mai kumhaar.. tu pundit.. mai malhaar.. tu sc.. mai st.. tu amka mai timkaa but as early as 350 BC chanakya saw it, unified it and made the greeks go back home.. established the mighty maurya dynasty. Par haan hum aapas me ek dusre ki gand me ungli karne me itne busy hote hain ki bahar se kaun aayaa aur gand mar gayaa bahut der baad pataa chalta hai.. tab satyam jaise historians paida hote hain dubaara logon ki gaand me ungli karne.. with historical stuff.. facts or hypedup does not matter.
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Old June 30th, 2004, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GpeL
tab satyam jaise historians paida hote hain dubaara logon ki gaand me ungli karne.. with historical stuff.. facts or hypedup does not matter.
Yes PeluNath I see your point. I think we should basically ignore history totally. There is nothing much we can learn from history in any case.

What we should do instead is reach down under the mullas asses and lick them clean with our tongues just like you do right?
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Old June 30th, 2004, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GpeL
Don't completely agree with that. Chanakyaa showed that hindu power could be harnessed. The problem with hindus is major divide in the society.. tu chamar.. mai kumhaar.. tu pundit.. mai malhaar.. tu sc.. mai st.. tu amka mai timkaa but as early as 350 BC chanakya saw it, unified it and made the greeks go back home.. established the mighty maurya dynasty. Par haan hum aapas me ek dusre ki gand me ungli karne me itne busy hote hain ki bahar se kaun aayaa aur gand mar gayaa bahut der baad pataa chalta hai.. tab satyam jaise historians paida hote hain dubaara logon ki gaand me ungli karne.. with historical stuff.. facts or hypedup does not matter.
According to my modern sources of info - ie movie and serials-
In Indian history, Chankya was given the credit for sending Alex back and for uniting india but western history gives totally different reasons. (refence: chankya serial and alexender movie)

Yes Indians can be united but not in a democretic fasion - you need someone powerfual - some autocrate with a dandaa who could hurd the donkeys, dhors, hores, horses and gawaars all the same!
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Old June 30th, 2004, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zen

Yes Indians can be united but not in a democretic fasion - you need someone powerfual - some autocrate with a dandaa who could hurd the donkeys, dhors, hores, horses and gawaars all the same!
Correcto and that cannot happen.. and likes of Lalloo and Mulaayam and Togadia and Sonia and Modis will keep the society divided all in time for the next election.

In between nitwits like satyam will keep harping some things like this.
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Old June 30th, 2004, 11:20 AM
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Only sad part about Hindus is that there are many who will jump up immediately in defense of any minorities, either caste or religion based, but will immediately oppose any mention or thought about Hindus being at the receiving end of a raw deal. I see it in the Indian media and I see it here too.

I am not for violence and riots, but surely there are situations where Hindus do suffer. But anyway... I am happy that BJP realised that even if Vajpayee does the Macarena the core voters are the only base they have. So enough with the India Shining and lets BJP focus back on core issues.. Good that they finally heard the calls by RSS and have included RSS again in the decision making process.
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Old June 30th, 2004, 11:30 AM
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Thumbs up BJP should go back to Hindutva

I think Vajpayee did an amazing job with the economy etc. But he underestimated the Muslim pig headedness. I feel BJP should become more stridently Hindutvavadi. There should be very intense Hindu movements initiated by the BJP. This does not necessarily mean breaking down mosques. It could be things like razing to the ground illegal slums dominated in most cases by Muslims. Scanning and destroying Madarsas who teach shit. Trying to make Vande Mataram compulsary in schools. Trying hard to kick out illegal Bangladeshis or destroying their hutments etc...
get my drift?
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Old June 30th, 2004, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by echarcha
Only sad part about Hindus is that there are many who will jump up immediately in defense of any minorities, either caste or religion based, but will immediately oppose any mention or thought about Hindus being at the receiving end of a raw deal. I see it in the Indian media and I see it here too.

I am not for violence and riots, but surely there are situations where Hindus do suffer. But anyway... I am happy that BJP realised that even if Vajpayee does the Macarena the core voters are the only base they have. So enough with the India Shining and lets BJP focus back on core issues.. Good that they finally heard the calls by RSS and have included RSS again in the decision making process.
And what might that core issues be that are so important to common man?

By the way.. I think BJP blew it.. big time.. I cannot foresee them in power anymore.. Sad.. but true.. Instead of encouraging voters to go out and vote.. they kept twiddling their thumb.. and India shining was an Insult to the poor villages who went out and gave them a big danda..

Good we got Sardar as PM.. but lets not digress.

Khurch.. what are the core issues please? (I mean apart from the very pressing issue of Ram temple and sending a very clear message to babar that such acts will not be tolerated?)
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Old June 30th, 2004, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GpeL
and India shining was an Insult to the poor villages who went out and gave them a big danda..

Wow you sit 10000 miles away from India and pretend you know everything??

BJP lost because the people thought it was going to win any ways, so it's core constituency did not go out and vote. The hard core voters were bored with BJP's muslim asslicking.

BJP is sure to come back to power with a vengence if it reignites the Hindutva flames.
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Old June 30th, 2004, 11:39 AM
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IMHO, Hindus have caused more harm to Hindus than outside forces. Its easier to blame outsiders for problems but the solution lies within. As long as casteism exists, Hindus will continue to infight. Crab mentality.

I am all for Hindu power. But use that power to create, not to destroy.
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Old June 30th, 2004, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GpeL
And what might that core issues be that are so important to common man?

By the way.. I think BJP blew it.. big time.. I cannot foresee them in power anymore.. Sad.. but true.. Instead of encouraging voters to go out and vote.. they kept twiddling their thumb.. and India shining was an Insult to the poor villages who went out and gave them a big danda..

Good we got Sardar as PM.. but lets not digress.

Khurch.. what are the core issues please? (I mean apart from the very pressing issue of Ram temple and sending a very clear message to babar that such acts will not be tolerated?)
BJP blew it.. I agree. But why? Not just because of Ram Mandir issue being put on the back burner.

I had mentioned this article before which does a very good analysis of their loss at the polls. I had posted it in a thread for discussing Why the BJP Lost. BUt I will post the links again which highlights the issues which were not handled by the BJP properly.

Quote:
Why the NDA lost
Some points from this article -
  • Failure to use surplus food stocks
  • Wrong timing of the election
  • Skewed election campaigning
    Almost all the campaigning was on the NDA government's overall development results, such as the government's Golden Quadrilateral scheme, political stability, peace in J&K, peace with Pakistan, high international status, credit cards for farmers, etc on the one side, and running down or making warnings about the Congress on the other. Towards the end of this campaign, the BJP even openly begged Muslims for votes, thereby upsetting lakhs of its conventional supporters.
  • Failure to look 'different' to the public
and this other links gives more details...
Quote:
BJP needs killer instinct
  • NDA's failure to use power
    After triggering Pokhran II, the BJP-led NDA became timid and lost the nerve to use the vast power and prestige enjoyed by the Government of India. Among the many instances of this failure to use those advantages, the conspicuous ones are listed below.
  • Failure to take the English press and the Congress head on regarding the meaning of 'secular' and 'secularism.' A commentary posted as a rediff.com special on March 7, 2000, had revealed the forgotten fact that the Morarji Desai government had moved the 45th Constitutional Amendment Bill in 1978 which, among other issues, defined secularism as equal respect to all religions; that bill was passed in the Lok Sabha, but turned down by the Congress majority in the Rajya Sabha.
Though Arvind Lavakare writes in favour of BJP on ocassion, these two articles do not spare the BJP where they went wrong.

So there.. I think these core issues are what BJP needed to focus on.
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Old June 30th, 2004, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zorro
IMHO, Hindus have caused more harm to Hindus than outside forces. Its easier to blame outsiders for problems but the solution lies within. As long as casteism exists, Hindus will continue to infight. Crab mentality.

I am all for Hindu power. But use that power to create, not to destroy.
Yeah right, What are Hindus using Hindu Power for destroying in Kashmir?

Where is Hindu power being oppressive that bombs go off in Mumbai ever so often?
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Old June 30th, 2004, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by echarcha
BJP blew it.. I agree. But why? Not just because of Ram Mandir issue being put on the back burner.

...............

So there.. I think these core issues are what BJP needed to focus on.
Hmm ok.. I thought the commentaries by various writers are about why bjp lost the election.. and not about the core issues.

So those are the core issues? I stand corrected

I mistakenly thought that the core issues revolved around issues like Law and order in various states, the liberalization of economy.. removal of red tape for business, employment, and basically 2 square meals a day, safety of property and life, and the various other factors that affect the day to day lives of the citizens.
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