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Old August 30th, 2013, 07:19 AM
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Mysteries of Ancient India

I have been doing painstaking research to write my book - Tantra. During this process, I feel I have unraveled some facts about Indian history. Part of me feels that these truths have been buried because it is highly controversial.

After carefully studying the sacred texts and carefully placing the pieces of this massive jigsaw puzzle together, I have developed these theories.

Here are my 10 points I wish to make.

1. There is no religion called Hinduism. It's just a random epithet that lumps all the varied religions practiced in the Indian sub-continent into one over-arching religion. It's like lumping everybody living in the Mediterranean - Christians and Muslims - into one religion and call them "Mediterros'.

2. In ancient India, there were 2 religions - Dharmic and Shaivik. You either followed Dharma and worshipped Vishnu and his avatars or did not follow Dharma, and automatically became a follower of Shiva. Followers of Dharma have to worship Vishnu. Followers of aDharma do not have to worship Shiva, but may choose to.

3. Dharma, per ancient India, means adherence to the caste system. Per Dharma, every individual must be a Karmayogi. Karma means performing your duty as determined by your birth. Yoga means following instruction.

4. Dharmic duties have been clearly documented and expounded upon in a variety of texts, including Shrimad Bhagavatam, Bhagavat Gita, Upanishads and Manusmriti.

5. In the past 200 years of so, there have been several attempts to erase, re-interpret or re-write our religious texts and history.

6. Shaiviks do not believe in a caste system. In fact, caste system is considered an anathema. Shaiviks do not have any rules or boundaries. "Everything goes" in Shaivism. You could be a cannibal or have sex with underage girls on a funeral pyre - that's okay. However, most Shiva worshippers are normal people with normal lifestyles. Shaivism emphasizes on Samkhya, which means the art of analysis. Be curious, explore and challenge the boundaries.

7. Vaishnavites and Shaivites have had several wars. In fact, most of the glorified wars in Ancient India, that were captured in religious texts, have been about Vaishnavism vs Shaivism.

For e.g.:

* The war between Vashishta and Vishwamitra. Vashishta was a Vedic Brahmin and Vishwamitra converted from Vedic Brahmin to Shaivism. Vishwamitra led the Battle of Ten Kings against Indra. He was defeated. This story is captured in Rig Veda in Mandala 7, which is considered to be the oldest section of the Rig Veda.

* The war between Rama and Ravan. Rama was Vishnu's avatar and Ravana was a powerful king and a Shiva-bhakt.

* The war between Bhisma and Parashuram. Parashuram was a Shiva Bhakt. Bhisma was a Dharmic. This is captured in the Mahabharat.

* Parashuram vs Kartavirya Arjun. Kartavirya Arjun was a strong Vaishnavite, who was a disciple of Dattatreya, son of Maharishi Atri.

* King Ambareesha vs Durvasa. Durvasa was considered the embodiment of Shiva. King Ambareesha was a Vaishnavite.

* Krishna insulted Durvasa during the "Akshayapatra" episode.

* Rama broke the "Shiva-Dhanush" during Sita's swayamvara.

* In the Samudra Manthan, Vishnu get's to drink the nectar, while Shiva drinks the poison.

8. Dharmics have demonized Rakshasas. Rakh-shaksas are basically those people who cover their faces with ash. This is a common practice amongst Shiva worshippers.

9. During Vedic times, Asuras may have been people who followed the Ahura Mazda, while Devas were those who followed 'Bhagavan', which was the divine decree as propounded by the Rishis who wrote the Dharmic texts. Later, Asuras and Rakh-shakas were used interchangeably to lump everyone who opposed the Devas.

10. The Samudra Manthan was a symbolic story that captures the transition from a Vedic ideology to a Dharmic ideology and the mass migration from the Sindhu river to Ganga.

I don't want to get into too much detail in this thread. If you are fascinated by Indian mythology, I'd encourage you to read Tantra, because I've narrated the story and mixed it up with some drama.

Last edited by kalidas; August 30th, 2013 at 07:22 AM.
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Old August 30th, 2013, 09:02 AM
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Thumbs down Re: Mysteries of Ancient India

Sorry I didnt read your post.Its very long and boring.All things religion and god and other superstition are very yawning and boring for me.

Therefore I am rating ur post as 1 star.Sorry but no sorry.
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Old August 30th, 2013, 09:08 AM
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Re: Mysteries of Ancient India

What you are saying, in summary, is:

1. Vaishnivism is akin to any modern-day religion and Shaivism is akin to science. It is an age-old battle between religion and science. Religion wants to follow rules as have been laid out in the books... whether right or wrong... true or false. Science only searches for the truth... and discards what is false today. One cannot say there is no truth in religion... but it will not reject the falsity... why because the books say so. Science has no qualms in rewriting its books.

2. Hindu religions mean the same as Red-Indian religions or European religions. Could be many but all are lumped together in one massive o*gy of religions.

3. Parshuram has always lost his battles.

4. Science has always lost to religion... at least in the old days... in many battles... but the war goes on... and no one can say whether science will win or we will forever remain in the dark ages.
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Old August 30th, 2013, 09:14 AM
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Re: Mysteries of Ancient India

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sane Less View Post
What you are saying, in summary, is:

1. Vaishnivism is akin to any modern-day religion and Shaivism is akin to science. It is an age-old battle between religion and science. Religion wants to follow rules as have been laid out in the books... whether right or wrong... true or false. Science only searches for the truth... and discards what is false today. One cannot say there is no truth in religion... but it will not reject the falsity... why because the books say so. Science has no qualms in rewriting its books.

BINGO!!!


2. Hindu religions mean the same as Red-Indian religions or European religions. Could be many but all are lumped together in one massive o*gy of religions.

BINGO

3. Parshuram has always lost his battles.

Difficult to generalize. Dharmics were better at story-telling than Shaivites.

4. Science has always lost to religion... at least in the old days... in many battles... but the war goes on... and no one can say whether science will win or we will forever remain in the dark ages.

See my comments above in red.
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Old August 30th, 2013, 09:19 AM
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Re: Mysteries of Ancient India

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Originally Posted by kalidas View Post
Difficult to generalize. Dharmics were better at story-telling than Shaivites.
Are you saying that in their search for truth, the Shaivites found ganja and bhaang... and once they were into it they found elt. And being forever high they never bothered to read and write... and thus failed at story-telling If so then we cannot group them together with scientists... who you reckon would be highly educated and prone to writing long essays on every finding.

A better theory would be that the layman (mango person) would rather read the interesting stories jetted out by the Vaishnavis rather than the boring prose written by Shaivites about their findings and theories. This sort of jells more with human behavior that one can still find in today's world... and even on echarcha if you go by some posts in this very thread
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Old August 30th, 2013, 09:40 AM
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Re: Mysteries of Ancient India

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Originally Posted by Sane Less View Post
Are you saying that in their search for truth, the Shaivites found ganja and bhaang... and once they were into it they found elt. And being forever high they never bothered to read and write... and thus failed at story-telling If so then we cannot group them together with scientists... who you reckon would be highly educated and prone to writing long essays on every finding.

A better theory would be that the layman (mango person) would rather read the interesting stories jetted out by the Vaishnavis rather than the boring prose written by Shaivites about their findings and theories. This sort of jells more with human behavior that one can still find in today's world... and even on echarcha if you go by some posts in this very thread
Shaivites wrote several texts. Let me give you some examples.

The Kama Shastra, written by Vatsyayana, is basically about the love-making between Shiva and Parvati.

The Sushruta Samhita, which is the foundation for Ayurveda, was written by Shaivites. It's got several tantras like Purva tantra, uttar tantra, etc.

Vishwakarman may have been an architect or engineer who is said to have built the city of Lanka and the city of Dwarka. He is also said to have invented the plough and chariot.

There is some evidence, and I'm going out on a limb here, that the tantrics played a role in building the Egyptian pyramids.
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Old August 30th, 2013, 10:00 AM
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Re: Mysteries of Ancient India

So you are saying that religion destroyed science in the days of yore... and in today's world, science is making a resurgence with a vengeance... unless... unless it is squashed like a vermin again by religion
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Old August 30th, 2013, 10:03 AM
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Re: Mysteries of Ancient India

How do you know Parshuram and Bhishma existed.. and these all things you read are not just good works of fiction? Of course a very great job has been done in the history of mankind to sell such books.. and it has been in the interest of others to feign belief.

Last edited by sarv_shaktimaan; August 30th, 2013 at 10:05 AM.
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Old August 30th, 2013, 10:54 AM
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Re: Mysteries of Ancient India

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sane Less View Post
What you are saying, in summary, is:

1. Vaishnivism is akin to any modern-day religion and Shaivism is akin to science. It is an age-old battle between religion and science. Religion wants to follow rules as have been laid out in the books... whether right or wrong... true or false. Science only searches for the truth... and discards what is false today. One cannot say there is no truth in religion... but it will not reject the falsity... why because the books say so. Science has no qualms in rewriting its books.

2. Hindu religions mean the same as Red-Indian religions or European religions. Could be many but all are lumped together in one massive o*gy of religions.

3. Parshuram has always lost his battles.

4. Science has always lost to religion... at least in the old days... in many battles... but the war goes on... and no one can say whether science will win or we will forever remain in the dark ages.
Good analysis Sane!
to kali for research!
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Old August 30th, 2013, 11:08 AM
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Re: Mysteries of Ancient India

Good analysis Kalidas ...
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Last edited by landyaBhai; August 30th, 2013 at 11:12 AM.
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Old August 30th, 2013, 11:09 AM
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Re: Mysteries of Ancient India

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Originally Posted by Mrs Bhandaari View Post
Sorry I didnt read your post.Its very long and boring.All things religion and god and other superstition are very yawning and boring for me.

Therefore I am rating ur post as 1 star.Sorry but no sorry.
So stay away then, please dont derail the thread ... you can take this part of your rationale to some other new thread ...
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Old August 30th, 2013, 11:11 AM
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Re: Mysteries of Ancient India

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sane Less View Post
What you are saying, in summary, is:

1. Vaishnivism is akin to any modern-day religion and Shaivism is akin to science. It is an age-old battle between religion and science. Religion wants to follow rules as have been laid out in the books... whether right or wrong... true or false. Science only searches for the truth... and discards what is false today. One cannot say there is no truth in religion... but it will not reject the falsity... why because the books say so. Science has no qualms in rewriting its books.

2. Hindu religions mean the same as Red-Indian religions or European religions. Could be many but all are lumped together in one massive o*gy of religions.

3. Parshuram has always lost his battles.

4. Science has always lost to religion... at least in the old days... in many battles... but the war goes on... and no one can say whether science will win or we will forever remain in the dark ages.
I think Sane, science has to start with some hypothesis and then come up with ways and means to prove it ...

I dont see how Vaishnavism or Shaivism can start with a hypothesis ... there are no clear marked boundaries in the spiritual world ..
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Old August 30th, 2013, 11:21 AM
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Re: Mysteries of Ancient India

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Originally Posted by sarv_shaktimaan View Post
How do you know Parshuram and Bhishma existed.. and these all things you read are not just good works of fiction? Of course a very great job has been done in the history of mankind to sell such books.. and it has been in the interest of others to feign belief.
Sarvi, I think we could look at all the temples, monuments, existence of rivers and places with names referred to in the scriptures, our current way of living which (by the way is a mess), but still remniscent of the mix of vedic and non-brahminic cultures ...

Actually, Nehru got it all wrong, when he said we assimilated every other culture, no we did not ... we actually had only a few that evolved with time, we were rather willing to die for our religion and culture (without fighting) or we were submissive to foreigners with forced conversions ... if you can call that evolution or assimilation in the name of secularism, it does not change anything ...

fact remains, we are the product of more than 90,000 years of a civilization and ours is definetly the oldest ...

In the Jaina texts, there are references to great figures from the Vedic Puranas and the same goes the other way around .. Adhinatha the first who started Jainism is a very respected figure in both the Vedas and the Jaina text ...
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Old August 30th, 2013, 11:25 AM
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Re: Mysteries of Ancient India

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Originally Posted by landyaBhai View Post
I think Sane, science has to start with some hypothesis and then come up with ways and means to prove it ...

I dont see how Vaishnavism or Shaivism can start with a hypothesis ... there are no clear marked boundaries in the spiritual world ..
But why do you say that Vaishnavism and Shaivism have anything to do with the spiritual world. If fact, we know that neither of these have anything to do with spiritual or philosophy. Vaishnavism is all about rules and rituals for everyday everyman life... including caste systems and hereditary power transfer. Shaivism is just about getting high... and staying there. A hypothesis can be created by either group... and painstakingly proved. But since the former has everything already laid out there is no reason to come up with a new hypothesis for anything... whereas the later needs to generate them for every little difference they see in life... including moralism and ethics.
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Old August 30th, 2013, 11:30 AM
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Re: Mysteries of Ancient India

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Originally Posted by Sane Less View Post
Are you saying that in their search for truth, the Shaivites found ganja and bhaang... and once they were into it they found elt. And being forever high they never bothered to read and write... and thus failed at story-telling If so then we cannot group them together with scientists... who you reckon would be highly educated and prone to writing long essays on every finding.

A better theory would be that the layman (mango person) would rather read the interesting stories jetted out by the Vaishnavis rather than the boring prose written by Shaivites about their findings and theories. This sort of jells more with human behavior that one can still find in today's world... and even on echarcha if you go by some posts in this very thread
The marijuana or any other alcoholic agent is basically a tool used for people who could retain their consciousness regardless of alcohol consumption ...

I am not an expert on many of the Tantric techniques for self-realization, but in tantra, the idea is basically to use any mundane activity and use it see the real-self (the one beyond the mind-made ego) ... sleeping on a bed of nails or walking on fire (as some Buddhists do) or even the marshal-art-technique of being drunk and fighting are just ways to see who is the real person doing the activity ... it is like when in extreme fear or danger, your mind just splits from its usual association with its ego and for a moment sees something it cannot describe ...

So we cannot comment on such things used by fools in front of gullible masses ...
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