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  #1  
Old November 24th, 2007, 12:18 AM
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Who Am I? Interesting Zen Story about Surrender & Freedom (Nirvana)

Quoted from Osho's commentary on Vigyan Bhairav Tantra

We live with the ego, in the ego, centered in the ego. I am without knowing who I am. I go on announcing, ”I am.” This ”I-am-ness” is false, because I do not know who I am. And unless I know who I am, how can I say ”I”? This ”I” is a false ”I”. This false ”I” is the ego. This is the defense. This protects you from surrendering.

You cannot surrender, but you can become aware of this defense measure. If you have become aware of it, it dissolves. By and by, you are not strengthening it, and one day you come to feel, ”I am not.” The moment you come to feel ”I am not,” surrender happens. So try to find out whether you are. Really, is there any center in you that you can call your ”I”?. Go deep down within yourself, go on trying to find out where is this ”I”, where is the abode of this ego.

Rinzai went to his master and he said, ”Give me freedom!” The master said, ”Bring yourself. If you are, I will make you free. But if you are not, then how can I make you free? You are already free. And freedom,” his master said, ”is not your freedom. Really, freedom is freedom from ‘you’. So go and find out where this ‘I’ is, where you are, then come to me. This is the meditation. Go and meditate.” So the disciple Rinzai goes and meditates for weeks, months, and then he comes. Then he says, ”I
am not the body. Only this much I have found.” So the master says, ”This much you have become free. Go again. Try to find out.” Then he tries, meditates, and he finds that ”I am not my mind, because I can observe my thoughts. So the observer is different from the observed – I am not my mind.” He comes and says, ”I am not my mind.” So his master says, ”Now you are three-fourths liberated. Now go again and find out who you are.”

So he was thinking, ”I am not my body. I am not my mind.” He had read, studied, he was well informed, so he was thinking, ”I am not my body, not my mind, so I must be my soul, my ATMA.” But he meditated, and then he found that there is no atman, no soul, because this atma is nothing but your mental information – just doctrines, words, philosophies.

So he came running one day and he said, ”Now I am no more!” Then his master said, ”Am I now to teach you the methods for freedom?” Rinzai said, ”I am free because I am no more. There is no one to be in bondage. I am just a wide emptiness, a nothingness.” Only nothingness can be free. If you are something, you will be in bondage. If you are, you will
be in bondage. Only a void, a vacant space, can be free. Then you cannot bind it.

Rinzai came running and said, ”I am no more. Nowhere am I to be found.” This is freedom. And for the first time he touched his master’s feet – for the first time! Not actually, because he had touched them many
times before also. But the master said, ”For the first time you have touched my feet.” Rinzai asked, ”Why do you say for the first time? I have touched your feet many times.” The master said, ”But you were there, so how could you touch my feet while you were already there? While you are there how can you touch my feet?” The ”I” can never touch anybody’s feet. Even though it apparently looks like it touches somebody’s feet, it is touching its own feet, just in a round-about
way. ”You have touched my feet for the first time,” the master said, ”because now you are no more. And this is also the last time,” the master said. ”The first and the last.”
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  #2  
Old November 24th, 2007, 03:08 PM
HarHarMahaDev HarHarMahaDev is offline
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Re: Who Am I? Interesting Zen Story about Surrender & Freedom (Nirvana)

Quote:
Originally Posted by landyaBhai
Quoted from Osho's commentary on Vigyan Bhairav Tantra

We live with the ego, in the ego, centered in the ego. I am without knowing who I am. I go on announcing, ”I am.” This ”I-am-ness” is false, because I do not know who I am. And unless I know who I am, how can I say ”I”? This ”I” is a false ”I”. This false ”I” is the ego. This is the defense. This protects you from surrendering.

You cannot surrender, but you can become aware of this defense measure. If you have become aware of it, it dissolves. By and by, you are not strengthening it, and one day you come to feel, ”I am not.” The moment you come to feel ”I am not,” surrender happens. So try to find out whether you are. Really, is there any center in you that you can call your ”I”?. Go deep down within yourself, go on trying to find out where is this ”I”, where is the abode of this ego.

Rinzai went to his master and he said, ”Give me freedom!” The master said, ”Bring yourself. If you are, I will make you free. But if you are not, then how can I make you free? You are already free. And freedom,” his master said, ”is not your freedom. Really, freedom is freedom from ‘you’. So go and find out where this ‘I’ is, where you are, then come to me. This is the meditation. Go and meditate.” So the disciple Rinzai goes and meditates for weeks, months, and then he comes. Then he says, ”I
am not the body. Only this much I have found.” So the master says, ”This much you have become free. Go again. Try to find out.” Then he tries, meditates, and he finds that ”I am not my mind, because I can observe my thoughts. So the observer is different from the observed – I am not my mind.” He comes and says, ”I am not my mind.” So his master says, ”Now you are three-fourths liberated. Now go again and find out who you are.”

So he was thinking, ”I am not my body. I am not my mind.” He had read, studied, he was well informed, so he was thinking, ”I am not my body, not my mind, so I must be my soul, my ATMA.” But he meditated, and then he found that there is no atman, no soul, because this atma is nothing but your mental information – just doctrines, words, philosophies.

So he came running one day and he said, ”Now I am no more!” Then his master said, ”Am I now to teach you the methods for freedom?” Rinzai said, ”I am free because I am no more. There is no one to be in bondage. I am just a wide emptiness, a nothingness.” Only nothingness can be free. If you are something, you will be in bondage. If you are, you will
be in bondage. Only a void, a vacant space, can be free. Then you cannot bind it.

Rinzai came running and said, ”I am no more. Nowhere am I to be found.” This is freedom. And for the first time he touched his master’s feet – for the first time! Not actually, because he had touched them many
times before also. But the master said, ”For the first time you have touched my feet.” Rinzai asked, ”Why do you say for the first time? I have touched your feet many times.” The master said, ”But you were there, so how could you touch my feet while you were already there? While you are there how can you touch my feet?” The ”I” can never touch anybody’s feet. Even though it apparently looks like it touches somebody’s feet, it is touching its own feet, just in a round-about
way. ”You have touched my feet for the first time,” the master said, ”because now you are no more. And this is also the last time,” the master said. ”The first and the last.”
Osho is full of shit....
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Old November 24th, 2007, 03:33 PM
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Re: Who Am I? Interesting Zen Story about Surrender & Freedom (Nirvana)

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Originally Posted by HarHarMahaDev
Osho is full of shit....
Yes atleast somebody knows what others are all about ... I am sure that judgement is based on some yardstick ... Usually that yardstick is based on some personality, one is best aware of or one feels very close to? ... You must definetly be knowing yourself very well ... and also you have experience of shitters ...

The last I checked about animal kingdom was that only pigs were aware of the quality of shit they have been surrounded with ...

But then passing judgments & opinions are traits only humans are rewarded with ... even pigs cant have that about other pigs ...
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Old November 24th, 2007, 04:02 PM
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Talking Re: Who Am I? Interesting Zen Story about Surrender & Freedom (Nirvana)

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Originally Posted by landyaBhai
Yes atleast somebody knows what others are all about ... I am sure that judgement is based on some yardstick ... Usually that yardstick is based on some personality, one is best aware of or one feels very close to? ... You must definetly be knowing yourself very well ... and also you have experience of shitters ...

The last I checked about animal kingdom was that only pigs were aware of the quality of shit they have been surrounded with ...

But then passing judgments & opinions are traits only humans are rewarded with ... even pigs cant have that about other pigs ...
Hahahahaha here we go. Can HarHarbhai come up with equally clever and yet witty rebuttal? Let's wait and see...

Landyabhai ... you're starting to scare the shit out of Yogi ...

Seriously ... are you back in to the folds of OSO?
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Old November 24th, 2007, 04:06 PM
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Re: Who Am I? Interesting Zen Story about Surrender & Freedom (Nirvana)

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Originally Posted by tantric_yogi
Hahahahaha here we go. Can HarHarbhai come up with equally clever and yet witty rebuttal? Let's wait and see...

Landyabhai ... you're starting to scare the shit out of Yogi ...

Seriously ... are you back in to the folds of OSO?
TantuJi, no I am not in any fold ... I just liked the story and I posted it citing the reference ... It's essentially a Zen story ...

There is a story that I got reminded today ... It's from Jainism ... Some concept known as anekantavaad ...

"Five blind men have never seen an elephant. When one day an elephant is brought to the village, the five approach, touch and attempt to describe it. One man, who is standing by the trunk, describes it as a thick branch of a tree. The man who feels the tail disagrees, insisting it is rather like a rope. The man who touches the side, in turn, submits that the elephant is actually like a great wall. But the man at the elephant's leg says it is like a pillar, and the man who gets hold of the ear describes it as a huge fan."

These blind men are still ok ... they accept their elephant as it is ... they dont form a good/bad opinion ... they are atleast brave enough to go and touch the elephant.

When, I posted this story here, I never would have imagined that someone could feel (& smell too), an the elephant, as something overflowing with shit, may be they got reminded of a pig ...

I dont deny my blindness, but then this world is full of blind men like us, and some of them do keep the variety increasing ...
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Old November 25th, 2007, 06:01 PM
HarHarMahaDev HarHarMahaDev is offline
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Re: Who Am I? Interesting Zen Story about Surrender & Freedom (Nirvana)

Quote:
Originally Posted by landyaBhai
TantuJi, no I am not in any fold ... I just liked the story and I posted it citing the reference ... It's essentially a Zen story ...

There is a story that I got reminded today ... It's from Jainism ... Some concept known as anekantavaad ...

"Five blind men have never seen an elephant. When one day an elephant is brought to the village, the five approach, touch and attempt to describe it. One man, who is standing by the trunk, describes it as a thick branch of a tree. The man who feels the tail disagrees, insisting it is rather like a rope. The man who touches the side, in turn, submits that the elephant is actually like a great wall. But the man at the elephant's leg says it is like a pillar, and the man who gets hold of the ear describes it as a huge fan."

These blind men are still ok ... they accept their elephant as it is ... they dont form a good/bad opinion ... they are atleast brave enough to go and touch the elephant.

When, I posted this story here, I never would have imagined that someone could feel (& smell too), an the elephant, as something overflowing with shit, may be they got reminded of a pig ...

I dont deny my blindness, but then this world is full of blind men like us, and some of them do keep the variety increasing ...
I read Osho's commentary on Bhairav Tantra a few years back and I remember finding some parts very nice.....

He def knows how to paint pictures using words and as such he is a great philosopher...but he is kindof like the Jim Morrison of religion...everything is about sex and drugs...then everything he says appears ethereal and psychedelic!
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Old November 25th, 2007, 06:42 PM
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Re: Who Am I? Interesting Zen Story about Surrender & Freedom (Nirvana)

Word is mishmash.

Niche market ... huge opportunities ... quick growth ... and not a cent in investment ... all you need is good memory and 4 to 6 trusted people ... for Indian market ... mishmash of Jainism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Yoga, tantra and ability to sit cross lagged does help ... for western market add a bit of left hand path of tantra.

Rest is easy ... you need 4 to six people ... promise them part of the loot ... one old couple ... one middle aged ... and a young ... men and women ... they need not be married ... all they need to do is spread the news ... we know, we know ... a great Swami, Yogi, Tantric, Baba, Bal Brahamchari ... buses, trains, temples, neighbors, markets ... wherever women congregate ... 2 to 6 months ... you'll be rolling in cash like pigs in shit.

Not a cent in investment ... 2 to 6 months ... the most. That's how all these Babas, Swamis, Bhagwans started ... name me one who did not and I will tell you what else did he add in to the mishmash.
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Old November 25th, 2007, 09:39 PM
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Re: Who Am I? Interesting Zen Story about Surrender & Freedom (Nirvana)

Preparation depends upon the segment of the market you plan to capture. You won't go for bikharis ... they are too smart to fall for your trickery. Go for middle class and wait for them to bring you the rich ... don't worry ... it will happen. Give attention to lady suckers ... don't worry ... they will bring in husbands.

Stop shaving ... no shampoo ... let your beard grow and hair mutt ... don't wear fancy clothes ... not till your trade is established to the point that rich bring you silk saffron dhotis and kurtas.

You will need books to read ... most of the time you can get them free. Hide the books once suckers start to roll in ... you were born Swami ... you don't need no fo(king books. You will also need framed photo of some now swargwasi swami ... bigger the better. Hang it behind where you plan to sit. Initially make it a point to sit on the bare floor ... remember you are a Swami, Baghwan, Yogi, Baba ... you don't need no bloody mattresses to sit on ... you must suffer for your bhaktas. Have couple of deepaks burning near you at all times ... now this is important ... use ghee ... never cheap oil ... something about women and purity of ghee.

Never ever partake of food in front of clients/suckers ... that is a big nono. Never announce you need to go take a shit or piss ... a big nono ... say I am exhausted now and need to rest or please leave now I need to go inside for prayers/hawana/yoga or whatever shit your books tell you to do. Drinking water in front of suckers is permitted as long as you don't gulp down entire glass of water ... a big nono ... sip a tea spoon and put glass aside.

Make sure women of your gang swoon all over you in front of suckers ... they must bend down completely in front of you to touch your feet and as a sign of total surrender ... if your gang members (female) can rest their head in your lap for comfort that's if sucker women sitting in front of you are young or of middle ages ... very effective method if sex is on your mind.

Now ... Landyabhai ... you're wondering ... if its so easy to become Baghwan, Swami, Bal Brahamchari, Yogi, and rest of the shitty titles ... why are there so few of these great people on TV, in ashrams or writing books. Landyabhai ... cause majority of of us feel guilty duping innocent ... our conscience won't let us take advantage of others more so when people are in dire need of comfort ... and that speaks a volume for bastards in the trade ... doesn't it, Landyabhai?

If you and members of your gang are criminally inclined ... good sharp polaroid comes in handy with return on investment x1000 ... keep adding zeros.
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दूर से देखने पर तो यही लगता था ... 'वाह! वहाँ क्या मजा होता होगा!'
बुरे फसें 'मजाल', आ कर जन्नत में ... हमने तो सोचा था, कुछ नया होता होगा!
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Old November 25th, 2007, 10:06 PM
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Re: Who Am I? Interesting Zen Story about Surrender & Freedom (Nirvana)

Landyabhai ... now you are set in the trade ... clients are coming in like flies in sandas ... your good name is spreading far and wide ... you got men and women who are willing to follow your wherever you go ... you no longer need your old gang ... fire them ... throw them out of your ashram ... don't worry if they will spill the beans ... let them ... name one swami, baba, baghwan, bal brahamchari who has not been accused by ex-followers of thuggery, treachery, or sexual misconduct with shishyas and sadhinis ... can you name one?
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दूर से देखने पर तो यही लगता था ... 'वाह! वहाँ क्या मजा होता होगा!'
बुरे फसें 'मजाल', आ कर जन्नत में ... हमने तो सोचा था, कुछ नया होता होगा!
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Old November 26th, 2007, 07:38 AM
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Re: Who Am I? Interesting Zen Story about Surrender & Freedom (Nirvana)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarHarMahaDev
I read Osho's commentary on Bhairav Tantra a few years back and I remember finding some parts very nice.....
Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, is a set of 112 sutras on techniques not philosophy ... just 112 techniques ... I can attach a pdf file here for reference ...
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Old November 26th, 2007, 07:56 AM
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Re: Who Am I? Interesting Zen Story about Surrender & Freedom (Nirvana)

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Originally Posted by landyaBhai
Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, is a set of 112 sutras on techniques not philosophy ... just 112 techniques ... I can attach a pdf file here for reference ...
I remember reading it on the internet....I think it's a free download...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...Bhairav+Tantra

Brainwashing is definitely an art and Osho is a master of that art!

TY - like your 'How you become a Dhongi Baba in 10 days' tutorial.

If I may add a few clauses:

- Use pot-laced incense sticks in all settings (joking)

- Get the participants involved. Make them recite mantras and repeat it constantly. Get them to close their eyes, clap their hands and sway back and forth ... that is the sign of a true devotee. Get your employed-devotees to lead the sucker-devotees into a trance like state.

- Give them activities to perform during the day... Define certain food items as 'bad'! Basically, you are testing your devotee's faith... I dont know why but devotees love to have their faith tested. The more restrictive the faith becomes, the more compelled devotees become in enforcing the restrictions!

- Restrict company of individuals to other devotees. Have them meet on Wednesdays over potluck and recite popular bhajans. Send them audio cassettes, books, prayers, etc

- Completely occupy the devotees mindshare. Their entire waking (and sleeping) hours should be spent in devotion!
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Old November 26th, 2007, 08:10 AM
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Re: Who Am I? Interesting Zen Story about Surrender & Freedom (Nirvana)

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Originally Posted by HarHarMahaDev
He def knows how to paint pictures using words and as such he is a great philosopher...but he is kindof like the Jim Morrison of religion...
We just know everyone "kinda" ... It wouldnt be surprising if we look at our reel of life, and say well, "this is not me, this could me, how can I be this, ...", Now tell me, if one sees oneself like that, I think it is much worse than knowing someone else as a "kind of like" person ...

I get reminded of something that I wish you guys could feel ... I am sure we all have had this feeling sometime or the other ... I was listening to NPR and there was this soothing instrumental from Zimbabwe that was playing ... I was driving and in that moment, I felt very reverberated with the music and with the surroundings ... It was as if the trees were dancing as well ... Should I go about looking at the life musicians who were playing this music, as to what their attitudes and philosophy about life is? We dont ...

The key is transformation ... I repeat transformation ... If it transforms you, you dont question it ...

They say, Jesus died for our sins ... Well, we crucified Him, so that he could take the load of all of our sins plus the sin to crucify a person ... Such is our mentality ... We look at alleviation, not transformation ... Somebody should alleviate us of our problems ... Even if those sins involve something as basic as sex and addiction ... And if there is someone who comes forward and addresses this in his own way, then we crucify him ... It is as if we are critics , we are looking for one loophole and we tighten the noose ... Unfortunately, people forget that that noose is on their own neck ...

The key is transformation ... it's like a placebo ... The doctor gives it, you trust the doctor (ofcourse we dont question his tendencies: spiritual, sex, drugs, and otherwise), you take the placebo and the ailment just vanishes ... They say 99% of our health problems are mental ... and if they are not resolved, then they manifest themselves as physical wound ... If someone gives meditation, we take it hoping that it brings well-being .. be it if it comes from a gora yoga teacher for whom we pay 50$ a session, we have our own biases (how can a gora teach us Yoga, that belongs to us Indian) ... we keep on doing the yoga (and we say, well it has not brought as any wellbeing) ... you tell me how can a technique bring a transformation when the mind is occupied with mistrust ... When Shiva gave this knowledge of tantra, did anyone question Him? ... People who got transformed, they never bothered ... and sutras are there in front of us ... The only thing we do is question?

We are free and if we want to question someone's behavior, there is no limit ... Even Lord Ram couldnt go beyond that ... He questioned His wife Sita about giving proof for her honor (the same sex occupied mind is asking for proof) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarHarMahaDev
everything is about sex and drugs...
Most of our lives here and offline revolve around sex ... what is wrong with that? Some of us are not addicted to drugs but then we are addicted to something else ...

Someone is addicted to cursing some religion over other, some sect and some region over other region ... That is an addiction, that is far worse than drugs, atleast with drugs, you kill yourself... in the other case, we kill the other person's respect (even without giving him a chance) and sometimes we even kill him ... I love pigs ... they dont do that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarHarMahaDev
then everything he says appears ethereal and psychedelic!
You look at Bhagawad Gita, or any other scripture ... most of it appears ethereal and psychedelic ...

You would be surprised that following verse has been interpreted in a number of ways:
"sarva-dharman parityajya
mam ekam saranam vraja
aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
moksayisyami ma sucah
"

And yet these verses have had their effects ... some call it mass-hysteria, some call it hypnosis ... some call it cult ... Just based on this verse, we have a number of believers having their own cult based on their own interpretation ... None of them question the sutra or it authenticity ... yet they question each-other's commentary ... and to add to the variety there are some of us, who stand outside, and pick some random thoughts about all these cults/sects and ridicule them for their one of their weird practices ...
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Last edited by landyaBhai; November 26th, 2007 at 08:26 AM.
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  #13  
Old November 26th, 2007, 08:27 AM
HarHarMahaDev HarHarMahaDev is offline
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Re: Who Am I? Interesting Zen Story about Surrender & Freedom (Nirvana)

Quote:
Originally Posted by landyaBhai
We just know everyone "kinda" ... It wouldnt be surprising if we look at our reel of life, and say well, "this is not me, this could me, how can I be this, ...", Now tell me, if one sees oneself like that, I think it is much worse than knowing someone else as a "kind of like" person ...

I get reminded of something that I wish you guys could feel ... I am sure we all have had this feeling sometime or the other ... I was listening to NPR and there was this soothing instrumental from Zimbabwe that was playing ... I was driving and in that moment, I felt very reverberated with the music and with the surroundings ... It was as if the trees were dancing as well ... Should I go about looking at the life musicians who were playing this music, as to what their attitudes and philosophy about life is? We dont ...

The key is transformation ... I repeat transformation ... If it transforms you, you dont question it ...

They say, Jesus died for our sins ... Well, we crucified Him, so that he could take the load of all of our sins plus the sin to crucify a person ... Such is our mentality ... We look at alleviation, not transformation ... Somebody should alleviate us of our problems ... Even if those sins involve something as basic as sex and addiction ... And if there is someone who comes forward and addresses this in his own way, then we crucify him ... It is as if we are critics , we are looking for one loophole and we tighten the noose ... Unfortunately, people forget that that noose is on their own neck ...

The key is transformation ... it's like a placebo ... The doctor gives it, you trust the doctor (ofcourse we dont question his tendencies: spiritual, sex, drugs, and otherwise), you take the placebo and the ailment just vanishes ... They say 99% of our health problems are mental ... and if they are not resolved, then they manifest themselves as physical wound ... If someone gives meditation, we take it hoping that it brings well-being .. be it if it comes from a gora yoga teacher for whom we pay 50$ a session, we have our own biases (how can a gora teach us Yoga, that belongs to us Indian) ... we keep on doing the yoga (and we say, well it has not brought as any wellbeing) ... you tell me how can a technique bring a transformation when the mind is occupied with mistrust ... When Shiva gave this knowledge of tantra, did anyone question Him? ... People who got transformed, they never bothered ... and sutras are there in front of us ... The only thing we do is question?

We are free and if we want to question someone's behavior, there is no limit ... Even Lord Ram couldnt go beyond that ... He questioned His wife Sita about giving proof for her honor (the same sex occupied mind is asking for proof) ...


Most of our lives here and offline revolve around sex ... what is wrong with that? Some of us are not addicted to drugs but then we are addicted to something else ...

Someone is addicted to cursing some religion over other, some sect and some region over other region ... That is an addiction, that is far worse than drugs, atleast with drugs, you kill yourself... in the other case, we kill the other person's respect (even without giving him a chance) and sometimes we even kill him ... I love pigs ... they dont do that!



You look at Bhagawad Gita, or any other scripture ... most of it appears ethereal and psychedelic ...

You would be surprised that following verse has been interpreted in a number of ways:
"sarva-dharman parityajya
mam ekam saranam vraja
aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
moksayisyami ma sucah"

And yet these verses have had their effects ... some call it mass-hysteria, some call it hypnosis ... some call it cult ... Just based on this verse, we have a number of believers having their own cult based on their own interpretation ... None of them question the sutra or it authenticity ... yet they question each-other's commentary ... and to add to the variety there are some of us, who stand outside, and pick some random thoughts about all these cults/sects and ridicule them for their one of their weird practices ...
What? I did not understand. Can u please elaborate?
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  #14  
Old November 26th, 2007, 08:36 AM
landyaBhai's Avatar
landyaBhai landyaBhai is offline
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Re: Who Am I? Interesting Zen Story about Surrender & Freedom (Nirvana)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarHarMahaDev
What? I did not understand. Can u please elaborate?
No I cant, it has already been elaborated.
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  #15  
Old November 26th, 2007, 08:37 AM
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landyaBhai landyaBhai is offline
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Re: Who Am I? Interesting Zen Story about Surrender & Freedom (Nirvana)

Interesting quote from Gurdjeff:

"To know means to know all ..
Not to know all, means not to know ...
In order to know all, it is only necessary to know a little...
But in order to know a little, it is first necessary to know pretty much ...
"

similar to LLKC? TYji ...
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Last edited by landyaBhai; November 26th, 2007 at 08:40 AM.
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