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  #61  
Old September 13th, 2008, 01:21 PM
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Re: I am Kanya raashi, passing through a worst phase

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Originally Posted by Sane Less View Post
I have laughed at your knowledge... because you speak with arrogance.
Sanelessbhai ... suppose if you were to replace word arrogance with fear? Fear often is result of knowing the consequences! He knows enough ... enough to be fearful.

Consider Krantikarbhai to be the person at a flooded street corner warning you of an open manhole, covered with dirt and water. Not visible to the eyes but you will pay heed to good man's warning ... right? Here is the prablum ... with astrology ... warned or not ... you are going to fall. Some would like to know and some don't care.

You raise the question if astrology is a science? Perhaps it was when astrology was all cosmology. I don't know cause I have never read Brighu Smirti. But in its current form ... astrology is all a mishmash ... difficult if not impossible to consider it a science. Consider this ... mix cosmology with gemology, numerology, and meta-physiological use of yantras, tantras, and the mantras. Complicated and confusing ... making it difficult to test, reproduce and reconfirm the results or the findings.

This doesn't mean that astrology is not a science ... all it means is that practitioners of the craft are not the scientists. Indian astrology is more of a home-grown-wisdom perfected by thousand years of practice. And I have no more with this fact.
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  #62  
Old September 13th, 2008, 04:30 PM
HarHarMahaDev HarHarMahaDev is offline
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Re: I am Kanya raashi, passing through a worst phase

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Originally Posted by tantric_yogi View Post
Sanelessbhai ... suppose if you were to replace word arrogance with fear? Fear often is result of knowing the consequences! He knows enough ... enough to be fearful.

Consider Krantikarbhai to be the person at a flooded street corner warning you of an open manhole, covered with dirt and water. Not visible to the eyes but you will pay heed to good man's warning ... right? Here is the prablum ... with astrology ... warned or not ... you are going to fall. Some would like to know and some don't care.

You raise the question if astrology is a science? Perhaps it was when astrology was all cosmology. I don't know cause I have never read Brighu Smirti. But in its current form ... astrology is all a mishmash ... difficult if not impossible to consider it a science. Consider this ... mix cosmology with gemology, numerology, and meta-physiological use of yantras, tantras, and the mantras. Complicated and confusing ... making it difficult to test, reproduce and reconfirm the results or the findings.

This doesn't mean that astrology is not a science ... all it means is that practitioners of the craft are not the scientists. Indian astrology is more of a home-grown-wisdom perfected by thousand years of practice. And I have no more with this fact.
TYji...I think arrogance is a better word...or do you suppose Saneless doesn't know how to express himself? Saneless speaks words of wisdom...something that all of us can learn from. I hear you are old, but not old enough to stop learning....I hope.

Last edited by HarHarMahaDev; September 13th, 2008 at 04:38 PM.
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  #63  
Old September 13th, 2008, 06:05 PM
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Re: I am Kanya raashi, passing through a worst phase

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Originally Posted by HarHarMahaDev View Post
TYji...I think arrogance is a better word...

So be it ...

or do you suppose Saneless doesn't know how to express himself? Saneless speaks words of wisdom...


Sanelessbhai sent you to fight his battle? Perhaps you didn't know ... we are back on talking terms.




something that all of us can learn from. I hear you are old, but not old enough to stop learning....I hope.

You speak the truth. I am old enough to know that there is so much left for me to learn.

I have a son in 5th grade who knows everything there is to know ... which reminds me of you ... I hope you are not so young that there is nothing left for you learn.


Harharbhai ... hold your punches is all I request. Here is an opportunity for some of us to learn ... you are not interested is fine ... don't let your ego come in our way.
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  #64  
Old September 13th, 2008, 07:21 PM
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Re: I am Kanya raashi, passing through a worst phase

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Originally Posted by tantric_yogi View Post
Harharbhai ... hold your punches is all I request. Here is an opportunity for some of us to learn ... you are not interested is fine ... don't let your ego come in our way.
Harabhai pai, thanks for your support... and your words always make the point through.

Tantarya pai, I have no problem with astrology... as long as it is treated as a hobby... by someone who is rich or healthy or well-settled in life and tends to have some common sense where he/she can work out the truths and the falsities in the right mind. To suggest astrology to someone who has lost many things... to someone who is not sound of mind at this time... is like sending the sheep to a butcher... is what I was trying to say. Astrology is not going to help the creator of this thread... at this time... except for moving her lower in her quality of life by emptying her purse.

Yeah, she will get some peace of mind buying a yellow stone at some expense... but if presented correctly, maybe she will get the same peace of mind by picking up a yellow stone on the beach. What she needs is a psychological support... probably already got that... so she is no longer visiting us... and we are left with aggravated outbursts here amongst ourselves
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  #65  
Old September 13th, 2008, 08:17 PM
HarHarMahaDev HarHarMahaDev is offline
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Re: I am Kanya raashi, passing through a worst phase

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Originally Posted by tantric_yogi View Post
Harharbhai ... hold your punches is all I request. Here is an opportunity for some of us to learn ... you are not interested is fine ... don't let your ego come in our way.
Please practice what your preach...that's all I ask.

Don't pretend to know the answers and don't pretend to be the final authority on this subject. Take a position and debate it. Please don't try to mediate. Not required. All members are smart enough to think for themselves.

Last edited by HarHarMahaDev; September 13th, 2008 at 08:21 PM.
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  #66  
Old September 14th, 2008, 09:12 AM
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Re: I am Kanya raashi, passing through a worst phase

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Originally Posted by krantikari View Post
Well Vedas do talk about creation.... and in the later stages they talk about the creation of Sun, Moon and the Planets. As per Vedic postulates Sun is the father of Saturn.... and so we have to keep in mind that the context of discussion is the creation and how the planets were created. Today science say that Air, Water, Earth etc are non-living things... Such is the limitation of science. Where as Vedas raise the level of these to deities. Just like we have a body, these deities also have a body and they are air, water, soil/rock etc.. If movement is the evidence of life then even science has proved or otherwise we know that these all really move. If we argue that the movement of these are based on certain scientific principles identified, ... well so is the locomotion of each and every living thing on the planet. Yet science will not identify air is a body of a living deity etc.. Of course Harara, Salness, etc will call me crazy for saying all these. But Vedas do give the planets the status of deity.

As far as the knowledge of astrology is concerned, that was received by Maharishi Bhrigu and it spread from there in different forms. Bhrigu Samhita is not a part of Ved yet the knowledge cannot be rejected as unimportant. The knowledge involves the deities mentioned in Ved and how they rule different signs of the zodiac and how they act upon each and every individual living thing.... including their influence on other planets. Astrology is not a part of Ved as Ved are unauthored texts while astrology has an author. Astrology is not a part of any religion per se.... yet in Hinduism it is accepted as divine knowledge as it came from a blessed sage.
It's a shame that people twist the content of Vedas and Rishis and our ancient texts to meet their own distorted world view.

Vedas were written in a different era, for a different set of people. It was a closely guarded secret, meant only for the highest order of Brahmins. Vedas contained rites and rituals - meant for specific purposes for specific people.

For e.g. - the Agnicayana yagna - was meant for kings before they launched an aggression. It was a 9-day long affair. Neighboring kings were invited...so as to determine and aggregate their support base.

The Ashwamedha yagna - another extremely important yagna - was meant for kings to mark their territory. So on and so forth.

There were rites and rituals to mark seasons and harvest times, birth, death, initiation rituals, etc. These rites and rituals had very specific objectives. I understand and am amazed at the profound thinking that has gone into structuring the vedas. It has the framework for nation-building, while retaining individual freedom. It's no wonder that ancient kings ruled the world. It is a subject for thorough academic discussion and evaluation.

Let us not trivialize the Vedas and the knowledge of our Rishis by using it as a justification for Astrology. The vedic saints never suggested that going to a temple and singing mantras will solve your everyday problems and automatically right some astrological wrongs! That is a complete unsubstantiated claim.

In fact, Vedas never supported idol worship. The main GOD in vedas was AGNI. There were others - Rudra, Saraswati, etc...but Rama, Krishna, Ganesha are not even mentioned in the vedas. So where are you pulling out all these 'remedies' from, about going to Hanuman temple and singing mantras, etc? (out of your ass I'm sure!!)

Last edited by HarHarMahaDev; September 14th, 2008 at 09:33 AM.
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  #67  
Old September 14th, 2008, 05:48 PM
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Thumbs up Re: I am Kanya raashi, passing through a worst phase

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarHarMahaDev View Post
It's a shame that people twist the content of Vedas and Rishis and our ancient texts to meet their own distorted world view.

Vedas were written in a different era, for a different set of people. It was a closely guarded secret, meant only for the highest order of Brahmins. Vedas contained rites and rituals - meant for specific purposes for specific people.

For e.g. - the Agnicayana yagna - was meant for kings before they launched an aggression. It was a 9-day long affair. Neighboring kings were invited...so as to determine and aggregate their support base.

The Ashwamedha yagna - another extremely important yagna - was meant for kings to mark their territory. So on and so forth.

There were rites and rituals to mark seasons and harvest times, birth, death, initiation rituals, etc. These rites and rituals had very specific objectives. I understand and am amazed at the profound thinking that has gone into structuring the vedas. It has the framework for nation-building, while retaining individual freedom. It's no wonder that ancient kings ruled the world. It is a subject for thorough academic discussion and evaluation.

Let us not trivialize the Vedas and the knowledge of our Rishis by using it as a justification for Astrology. The vedic saints never suggested that going to a temple and singing mantras will solve your everyday problems and automatically right some astrological wrongs! That is a complete unsubstantiated claim.

In fact, Vedas never supported idol worship. The main GOD in vedas was AGNI. There were others - Rudra, Saraswati, etc...but Rama, Krishna, Ganesha are not even mentioned in the vedas. So where are you pulling out all these 'remedies' from, about going to Hanuman temple and singing mantras, etc? (out of your ass I'm sure!!)
Mouthful of it ... HarHarbhai ... wish I had the knowledge to add ... I don't know enough and cant think of any member except Krantikaribhai to oblige.

I do have a question to ask of you. You say Vedas were/are closely guarded secret for the benefit of Brahmin community and I agree with you.

To keep seed of this thread fertilised ... Jyotish are always brahmins. All the brahmins you meet practice Jyotish. It has been like that for thousand years. So when did Jyotish-shastra become a part of a brahmin's curriculum/education/learning and why?
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बुरे फसें 'मजाल', आ कर जन्नत में ... हमने तो सोचा था, कुछ नया होता होगा!
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  #68  
Old September 14th, 2008, 06:43 PM
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Re: I am Kanya raashi, passing through a worst phase

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Originally Posted by tantric_yogi View Post
...

To keep seed of this thread fertilised ... Jyotish are always brahmins. All the brahmins you meet practice Jyotish. It has been like that for thousand years. So when did Jyotish-shastra become a part of a brahmin's curriculum/education/learning and why?

I am sure that I can provide a simple answer to that... they turned to jyotishi when they realized that people are getting smarter everyday... and they are getting less and less alms. They needed something to hold out on people... and they pretended they can predict the future... and tried to make it as scientific as you could in those days... which was pretty much zilch.
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  #69  
Old September 14th, 2008, 07:21 PM
HarHarMahaDev HarHarMahaDev is offline
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Re: I am Kanya raashi, passing through a worst phase

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Originally Posted by tantric_yogi View Post
Mouthful of it ... HarHarbhai ... wish I had the knowledge to add ... I don't know enough and cant think of any member except Krantikaribhai to oblige.

I do have a question to ask of you. You say Vedas were/are closely guarded secret for the benefit of Brahmin community and I agree with you.

To keep seed of this thread fertilised ... Jyotish are always brahmins. All the brahmins you meet practice Jyotish. It has been like that for thousand years. So when did Jyotish-shastra become a part of a brahmin's curriculum/education/learning and why?
Please drop the know-it-all attitude and provide your counter-arguments if you have any. Krantikari doesn't need an introduction. Or has he deputed you to fight his battles? Perhaps you didnt know...we are on talking terms.

But let me answer your question to the best of my knowledge. But before I do that, let me specifically talk about Kranti's reference to the hymn of creation in the Vedas.

It's called the Hiranyagarbha Sukta.

"hirayagarbh sm avartatgre bhtsya jt ptir ‚ka st |
s ddhra pthiv dym ut‚m ksmai devya hav vidhema ||
y tmad balad ysya vva upsate praa ysya dev |
ysya chymta ysya mty ksmai devya hav vidhema ||
y prat nimiat mahitvaka d rj jgato babhva |
y e asy dvipda ctupada ksmai devya hav vidhema ||
ysyem‚ himvanto mahitv ysya samudr rasy sahh |
ysyem prado ysya bh ksmai devya hav vidhema ||
y‚na dyar ugr pthiv ca dh y‚na sv… stabhit y‚na nka |
y antrike rjaso vimna ksmai devya hav vidhema ||
y krndas vas tastabhn‚ abhy aketm mnas r‚jamne |
ytrdhi sra dito vibhti ksmai devya hav vidhema ||
po ha yd bhatr vvam yan grbha ddhn janyantr agnm |
tto devn sm avartatsur ‚ka ksmai devya hav vidhema ||
y cid po mahin parypayad dka ddhn janyantr yajm |
y dev‚v dhi dev ‚ka st ksmai devya hav vidhema ||
m no hisj janit y pthivy y v dva satydharm jajna |
y cp candr bhatr jajna ksmai devya hav vidhema ||
prjpate n tvd etny any vv jtni pri t babhva |
ytkms te juhums tn no astu vay syma ptayo raym ||"

(
In the beginning was the Divinity in his splendour,manifested as the sole Lord of land, skies, water, space and that beneath and he upheld the earth and the heavens.
Who is the Deity we shall worship with our offerings? It is he who bestows soul-force and vigour,whose guidance all men invoke, the Devas invoke whose shadow is immortal life-and death.
Who is the Deity we shall worship with our offerings? It is he who by his greatness became the one King of the breathing and the seeing, who is the Lord of man and bird and beast.
Who is the Deity we shall worship with our offerings? It is he through whose glory the snow-clad mountains rose, and the ocean spread with the river, they say. His arms are the quarters of the sky.
Who is the Deity we shall worship with our offerings ? It is he through whom the heaven is strong and the earth firm, who has steadied the light and the sky’s vault, and measured out the sphere of clouds in the mid-region.
Who is the Deity we shall worship with our offering? It is he to whom heaven and earth, placed in the lightby his grace, look up, radiant with the mind while over them the sun, rising, brightly shines.
Who is the deity we shall worship with our offerings? When the mighty waters came, carrying the universal germ, producing the flame of life, then dwelt there in harmony the One Spirit of the Devas.
Who is the Deity we shall worship with our offerings? It is he who in his might surveyed the waters, conferring skill and creating worship-he, the God of Gods, the One and only One.
Who is the Deity we shall worship with our offerings? Father of the world - may he not destroy us who with Truth as his Law made the heavens and produced waters, vast and beautiful.
Who is the Deity we shall worship with our offerings? Lord of creation ! no one other than thee pervades all these that have come into being.


I refer to the Hiranyagarbha sukta in my unpublished novel - Mahapralayam. Tell me where is the justification for astrology in the above Sukta??


I don't have an answer to your question. If you believe in astrologers, you have the onus of telling me why/when they started to preach astrology....not me.



Last edited by HarHarMahaDev; September 14th, 2008 at 07:24 PM.
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  #70  
Old September 14th, 2008, 07:29 PM
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Re: I am Kanya raashi, passing through a worst phase

According to my learning of history(I would definitly do some more research today ).There was nothing called as caste system by birth in vedas.Vedas told that one is given the caste he works as so a shudra could have turned into a brahmin and vice -versa so i am amazed to know how it could have been a closely guarded secret.?
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Old September 14th, 2008, 07:32 PM
HarHarMahaDev HarHarMahaDev is offline
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Re: I am Kanya raashi, passing through a worst phase

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According to my learning of history(I would definitly do some more research today ).There was nothing called as caste system by birth in vedas.Vedas told that one is given the caste he works as so a shudra could have turned into a brahmin and vice -versa so i am amazed to know how it could have been a closely guarded secret.?
That is absolute hogwash. Caste system is the pillar of the Vedic thought. Whether it was explicitly stated in the vedas on not is subject to debate, but the fact that they were highly castist society cannot be debated. The Ramayana and Mahabharata are replete with casteist ideologies.
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Old September 14th, 2008, 07:37 PM
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Re: I am Kanya raashi, passing through a worst phase

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Originally Posted by HarHarMahaDev View Post
That is absolute hogwash. Caste system is the pillar of the Vedic thought. Whether it was explicitly stated in the vedas on not is subject to debate, but the fact that they were highly castist society cannot be debated. The Ramayana and Mahabharata are replete with casteist ideologies.
In that case i would like to see a proof from you becz all over india in history we read that in veda times the caste system was non-existent.It was only later that some selfish brahmins turned it into a rigid caste system.
It is studied in class 4 my friend in schools text books the caste system so do u mean to say that all the historians are idiots who have placed this text in textbooks
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Old September 14th, 2008, 07:48 PM
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Re: I am Kanya raashi, passing through a worst phase

There is a misconception in some minds that Hindu scriptures sanction the caste system.

Vedas, the proud possession of mankind, are the foundation of Hinduism. Vedas are all-embracing, and treat the entire humanity with the same respect and dignity. Vedas speak of nobility of entire humanity (krinvanto vishvam aryam), and do not sanction any caste system or birth-based caste system. Mantra, numbered 10-13-1 in Rig Veda, addresses the entire humanity as divine children (shrunvantu vishve amrutsya putraha). Innumerable mantras in Vedas emphasise oneness, universal brotherhood, harmony, happiness, affection, unity and commonality of entire humanity.

A few illustrations are given here. Vide Mantra numbered 5-60-5 in Rig Veda, the divine poet declares, All men are brothers; no one is big, no one is small. All are equal. Mantra numbered 16.15 in Yajur Veda reiterates that all men are brothers; no one is superior or inferior. Mantra numbered 10-191-2 in Rig Veda calls upon humanity to be united to have a common speech and a common mind. Mantra numbered 3-30-1 in Atharva Veda enjoins upon all humans to be affectionate and to love one another as the cow loves her newly-born calf. Underlining unity and harmony still further, Mantra numbered 3-30-6 in Atharva Veda commands humankind to dine together, and be as firmly united as the spokes attached to the hub of a chariot wheel.

The Bhagavad Gita, which contains the essence of Vedas and Upanishads, has many shlokas that echo the Vedic doctrine of oneness of humanity. In shloka numbered V (29), Lord Krishna declares that He is the friend of all creatures (suhridam sarva bhutanam) whereas shloka numbered IX (29) reiterates that the Lord has the same affection for all creatures, and whosoever remembers the Lord, resides in the Lord, and the Lord resides in him. Shloka numbered XVIII (61) declares that God resides in every heart (ishwar sarva bhutanam hrudyeshe Arjun tishthti).

Guna (Aptitude) and Karma (Actions)

Hindu scriptures speak only about varna which means to select (ones profession, etc.) and which is not caste or birth-based.

As per shloka numbered IV (13) of the Bhagavad Gita, depending upon a persons guna (aptitude) and karma (actions), there are four varnas. As per this shloka, a persons varna is determined by his guna and karma, and not by his birth. Chapter XIV of the Bhagavad Gita specifies three gunas viz. satva (purity), rajas (passion and attachment) and tamas (ignorance). These three gunas are present in every human in different proportions, and determine the varna of every person. Accordingly, depending on ones guna and karma, every individual is free to select his own varna. Consequently, if their gunas and karmas are different, even members of the same family can belong to different varnas. Notwithstanding the differences in guna and karma of different individuals, Vedas treat the entire humanity with the same respect and do not sanction any caste system or birth-based caste system.

Veda is the Foundation

Hinduism is all-embracing and grants the same respect to all humans, and anything to the contrary anywhere is not sanctioned by the Vedas. Being divine revelation, the shrutis (Vedas) are the ultimate authority on Dharma, and represent its eternal principles whereas being human recapitulations, smritis (recollections) can play only a subordinate role. As per shloka numbered (6) of Chapter 2 in Manu Smriti, Veda is the foundation of entire Dharma. Shloka numbered 2(13) of Manu Smriti specifies that whenever shruti (vedas) and smritis differ, stipulation of Vedas will prevail over smritis. In view of this position, anything discriminatory in Manu Smriti or anywhere else is anti-Veda, and therefore, is not sanctioned by Hinduism and has subsequently been inserted with unholy intentions, and deserves to be weeded out.

Besides, precise codification of Hinduism in one book is indispensable to make Hinduism easier to be understood by a layman. For this codification, appropriate mantras of Vedas and Upanishads, and selected shlokas in the Ramayana and the Mahabharata (which also includes the Bhagavad Gita), etc. will provide the basic material.

Role of Media

In order to usher in a casteless and harmonious society, the all-embracing and universal message of Vedas has to be followed and spread.

Both the print and electronic media play an important role in a countrys life. They should contribute their mite to unite various sections of the society. But in India, most of the media are unwittingly strengthening caste and communal divisions. By publishing divisive articles and describing political leaders and electorates, achievers and sports persons, and even wrong-doers and their victims as members of a particular caste or community, the media is strengthening the divisions instead of unifying the society. The media should play a positive role so that there is amity all around.

Let Your Hearts be One

Anyone believing in the caste system is violating the Vedic command of oneness of entire humanity. Although the first known poem in the world appeared as the first mantra in Rig Veda, and though the Vedas and Upanishads contain the sublimest thoughts in the sublimest language, because of a faulty education system, most of the educated Indians are ignorant of their rich heritage contained in the Vedas and Upanishads. Most Indians do not know Sanskrit, the language of Vedic literature. Many persons do not know even the meaning of their Sanskrit names. By learning Sanskrit one can read the Vedas, though even translated Vedic literature can be studied.

We have to ensure that we do not lose our rich Vedic heritage as it would amount ot losing our identity. To ensure the survival of our Vedic heritage, and to bring about unity and harmony in society, it is imperative that the all-embracing message of the Vedes is practised and propagated.
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Old September 14th, 2008, 07:50 PM
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Re: I am Kanya raashi, passing through a worst phase

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Originally Posted by jammy69 View Post
In that case i would like to see a proof from you becz all over india in history we read that in veda times the caste system was non-existent.It was only later that some selfish brahmins turned it into a rigid caste system.
It is studied in class 4 my friend in schools text books the caste system so do u mean to say that all the historians are idiots who have placed this text in textbooks
Really? Karna was case-and-point. Bhisma, Pandavas, and even Krishna did not approve of Karna's participation in the war because of his SHudra status.

There are countless cases...but let me tell you that the caste system was not necessarily an evil thing. Brahmins and Kshatriyas constituted a small % of the population - somewhere I read that it was not more than 10%. 90% were business / farmers. They paid taxes for protection and did not participate in wars, etc. Kings and brahmins dispensed justice and maintained law and order. The society was relatively peaceful since it provided a very stable environment for the masses. When kings got 'taken over', they never harassed the masses. So it worked out well for everybody....of course, these are simply theories.
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Old September 14th, 2008, 07:56 PM
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Re: I am Kanya raashi, passing through a worst phase

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Originally Posted by jammy69 View Post
...

It is studied in class 4 my friend in schools text books the caste system so do u mean to say that all the historians are idiots who have placed this text in textbooks
I am really surprised that you actually put faith in your school history books
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