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  #31  
Old May 9th, 2012, 09:33 AM
rahulpsharma rahulpsharma is offline
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Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

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Originally Posted by sanjayt View Post
Sounds like an over-the-top environmental manifesto that mixes facts with exaggerations, unsupported hypotheses, and, most importantly, a gloomy, foreboding denouement (Armageddon!) to all this. Comes with the territory.

This is not to deny the real ecological damage that comes as a by-product of industrialization.
To say that tiny little industrial activity is damaging the nature is like giving too much of a credit to mankind....!!! Nature is far to powerful and vast to be influenced by such tiny man-made accomplishments....!!! So let industrial activity boom.... We must simply grow more trees first before talking about big things like global warming....!!! Populate every inch of free land with trees...!! I dont believe in those tiny shrubs on which 'cute' flowers grow.... They are for more civilized clean countries... For us first, just trees.... Big and Boisterous...!!
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  #32  
Old May 9th, 2012, 10:15 AM
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sanjayt sanjayt is offline
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Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

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Originally Posted by rahulpsharma View Post
To say that tiny little industrial activity is damaging the nature is like giving too much of a credit to mankind....!!! Nature is far to powerful and vast to be influenced by such tiny man-made accomplishments....!!! So let industrial activity boom.... We must simply grow more trees first before talking about big things like global warming....!!! Populate every inch of free land with trees...!! I dont believe in those tiny shrubs on which 'cute' flowers grow.... They are for more civilized clean countries... For us first, just trees.... Big and Boisterous...!!
The trees in this town keep getting chopped off for road expansion.

There used to be some real pretty roads with trees that were probably hundreds of years old, and the trees got chopped and, in their place, we got concrete and asphalt.

OK. That was just a tidbit.

There surely is some ecological damage as a by-product of industrialization. We don't know how much nature can absorb. We are left to speculate, aren't we?

Worst-case scenario ... You know, like how the dinosaurs got extinct from climate changes ... They were the biggest predators then, I think. Same could happen to humans. We can never say.

But the planet would surely heal itself over a course of thousands or millions of years, whatever humans might have done.

Not that I'm worried one bit about the extinction of the human race ... but this should cheer up our Armageddon-predicting poster whose concern for Mother Earth is touching.
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  #33  
Old May 9th, 2012, 10:21 AM
rahulpsharma rahulpsharma is offline
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Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

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Originally Posted by sanjayt View Post
The trees in this town keep getting chopped off for road expansion.

There used to be some real pretty roads with trees that were probably hundreds of years old, and the trees got chopped and, in their place, we got concrete and asphalt.

OK. That was just a tidbit.

There surely is some ecological damage as a by-product of industrialization. We don't know how much nature can absorb. We are left to speculate, aren't we?

Worst-case scenario ... You know, like how the dinosaurs got extinct from climate changes ... They were the biggest predators then, I think. Same could happen to humans. We can never say.

But the planet would surely heal itself over a course of thousands or millions of years, whatever humans might have done.

Not that I'm worried one bit about the extinction of the human race ... but this should cheer up our Armageddon-predicting poster whose concern for Mother Earth is touching.
Michael Crichton coined an interesting phrase - Ecoterrorists - for those who indulge in scare mongering using Ecologial issues....
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  #34  
Old May 9th, 2012, 10:46 AM
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Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

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Originally Posted by rahulpsharma View Post
Michael Crichton coined an interesting phrase - Ecoterrorists - for those who indulge in scare mongering using Ecologial issues....
I would be wary of a term like Eco-terrorist. We can't tar everyone who raises environmental/ecological issues with the same brush. Within the environmental movement, there are fringe groups.

To go back and give one example ... DDT was widely used in the West at one time. There was a book by Rachel Carson called Silent Spring. A hugely influential book, and not just within the environmental community.

I think the ensuing restrictions on DDT usage in the West came about for several reasons, and this book had played an important part.

You see the title? Silent Spring? It's a propaganda man's delight. Without saying one more word, you've said a lot with the title itself. Who would want a spring season where the birds are silent? I haven't read the book myself, but I had read some analysis of the book. Can't remember now. I think there were some exaggerations in the book. I mean, Carson seems to have exaggerated the detrimental effects that DDT has.

Whatever ... the end-result is people who live in the West are far less likely to come across DDT in trace amounts in their water or food, unlike us.

Again, I don't know what to make of this. Trace amounts of harmful substances may not be a big deal, and the human body may be perfectly capable of dealing with them. I don't want to sound hysterical. At any rate, we are living far longer, healthier lives compared to 100 years before. The proof of the pudding, as they say, is in the eating.

OK. That was just one little example.

The bigger problem here is we are trying to predict the impact of certain activities, and of course, there will be a lot of uncertainty regarding the predictions because of the lack of availability of proper info and the very large number of unpredictable variables involved, etc. etc.

Post got too long, I think. Hope it has some sense in it.
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  #35  
Old May 9th, 2012, 10:59 AM
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Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

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Originally Posted by sanjayt View Post
I would be wary of a term like Eco-terrorist. We can't tar everyone who raises environmental/ecological issues with the same brush. Within the environmental movement, there are fringe groups.

To go back and give one example ... DDT was widely used in the West at one time. There was a book by Rachel Carson called Silent Spring. A hugely influential book, and not just within the environmental community.

I think the ensuing restrictions on DDT usage in the West came about for several reasons, and this book had played an important part.

You see the title? Silent Spring? It's a propaganda man's delight. Without saying one more word, you've said a lot with the title itself. Who would want a spring season where the birds are silent? I haven't read the book myself, but I had read some analysis of the book. Can't remember now. I think there were some exaggerations in the book. I mean, Carson seems to have exaggerated the detrimental effects that DDT has.

Whatever ... the end-result is people who live in the West are far less likely to come across DDT in trace amounts in their water or food, unlike us.

Again, I don't know what to make of this. Trace amounts of harmful substances may not be a big deal, and the human body may be perfectly capable of dealing with them. I don't want to sound hysterical. At any rate, we are living far longer, healthier lives compared to 100 years before. The proof of the pudding, as they say, is in the eating.

OK. That was just one little example.

The bigger problem here is we are trying to predict the impact of certain activities, and of course, there will be a lot of uncertainty regarding the predictions because of the lack of availability of proper info and the very large number of unpredictable variables involved, etc. etc.

Post got too long, I think. Hope it has some sense in it.
Nice post and nice excavation of the book... I havent read or heard about it... Surely seems worth giving it a try.... But experts also say that more people are killed by Mosquitoes routinely than might have ever been killed by DDT....!!

West is overtly sensitive of trace level pollutants.... I would be perfectly happy to see the western world pump in more and more money into Environmental research..... They have resources, means and above all sensitivity....!! Now here, in India, what environmental science we can preach or perform when open gutters and nullahs are flowing thru the middle of the city....!! I have another snap of an open nullah less than 750 meters from, now you must know who's house.... ....

So India wasting money in trying to curb GHG emissions etc sounds insane.... For us, on the environment front, the ONLY priority is containment of Dust.... More trees.... And proper garbage disposal mechanisms.... Lets first clear the Kinder Garten exams.... We can appear for professional courses later on....!!
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  #36  
Old May 9th, 2012, 11:17 AM
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sanjayt sanjayt is offline
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Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

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Originally Posted by rahulpsharma View Post
Nice post and nice excavation of the book... I havent read or heard about it... Surely seems worth giving it a try.... But experts also say that more people are killed by Mosquitoes routinely than might have ever been killed by DDT....!!

West is overtly sensitive of trace level pollutants.... I would be perfectly happy to see the western world pump in more and more money into Environmental research..... They have resources, means and above all sensitivity....!! Now here, in India, what environmental science we can preach or perform when open gutters and nullahs are flowing thru the middle of the city....!! I have another snap of an open nullah less than 750 meters from, now you must know who's house.... ....

So India wasting money in trying to curb GHG emissions etc sounds insane.... For us, on the environment front, the ONLY priority is containment of Dust.... More trees.... And proper garbage disposal mechanisms.... Lets first clear the Kinder Garten exams.... We can appear for professional courses later on....!!
Once you are a wealthy society, you can start paying special attention to trace-level pollutants.

You need something to worry about, don't ya?

Many of the infectious diseases that are still a huge problem for us ... they are no big deal in the West now. So, yeah, I fully agree with you that the nature of the problems in India is totally different, and often stem from a lack of basic hygiene and sanitation.

When England was industrializing, the changes and dislocation were often wrenching. People being forced to migrate from familiar and comfortable rural lives to urban areas, the disparity in wealth, the lack of protection for workers, etc. etc. I think, if our economy grows at, say, 9% for 20 years, you have to expect some of those kinds of uncomfortable changes.
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  #37  
Old May 9th, 2012, 07:27 PM
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Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

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Originally Posted by rahulpsharma View Post
West is overtly sensitive of trace level pollutants.... I would be perfectly happy to see the western world pump in more and more money into Environmental research..... They have resources, means and above all sensitivity....!!
One thing that occurs to me ... people who live in the West should be thanking the environmentalists.

They are now well-organized and well-funded; they have acted as an interest group/pressure point on govt. Sure, their demands are over-the-top sometimes. But it's also undoubtedly true that environmentalists have played a key role in pressuring the govt into creating laws and legislation that has contributed to cleaner air and cleaner water in the West. A lot of that legislation came about because environmental groups acted as interests groups tend to act in a democracy.

Of course, as you mention above, the ground situation in India is different.
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  #38  
Old September 22nd, 2012, 02:34 AM
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Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

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Story of Pseudo Environmentalism in Industrial Society.
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A Serial Killer with endless supply of ammunition goes on the rampage in the city.....The Police are informed.....They arrive on the scene.....They do not try to stop or capture the shooter.....They do not try to kill or incapacitate the shooter.....They allow him to continue shooting......They give him full liberty to move around all over the city.

The Police focus on the victims of shooting.....They take them to Hospitals and try to save them with the help of best Technology / Health Care.....The Government sets up thousands of Organizations to do research on how the Whites can be saved, How the Blacks can be saved, How the Asians can be saved, How the Young can be saved, How the Elderly can be saved.....The Government gives Billions of Dollars of Grant to "Think Tanks" and NGO's to find out how the victims can be saved.....People of the city engage in Billions of pages of Discussion, Debate and Argument to find a solution to the problem.

This is not the story of the Mass Shooter.....This is the story of Environmentalism in Industrial Society.

Environment is being destroyed by Industrial Activity........Environmental Activists and Organizations are trying to save environment without stopping Industrial Activity

One group is trying to save Forests......The second group is trying to save Rivers......The third group is trying to save Oceans......The fourth group is trying to make the Air clean......The fifth group is trying to save Tigers and Elephants......The sixth group is trying to save Whales and Dolphins.

Industrial Technology has destroyed environment........Industrial Society is trying to save environment by changing the Technology.

Bring this Technology, Bring that Technology........Bring this Technology, Bring that Technology.

Height of Insanity and Abnormality......This is like trying to save a victim of shooting not by stopping the shooting but by changing the gun.

People who are trying to save environment in Industrial Society without stopping all Industrial Activity deserve the Nobel Prize for Lunacy.

Why don't people realize the futility and absurdity of their efforts......It is impossible to save animals, trees, air, water and land without stopping all Industrial Activity.

What is the point in saving a few Dogs, Cats, Whales, Tigers and Elephants when Industrial Society is killing billions of animals in Industrial Slaughter Houses and billions of Wild Animals in Forests by destroying Forests with Industrial Activities like Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Construction Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Networks and ever expanding Towns and Cities.......Industrial Society is also killing billions of fish in the oceans with Industrial Fishing and through discharge of billions of tonnes of Industrial Waste into oceans which has made them poisonous, acidic, warmer and created oxygen-deprived dead zones in the oceans.

It is impossible to save Air, water and Land without stopping all Industrial Activity because Industrial Activity is killing them with trillions of tonnes of Metal waste, Plastic waste, Gaseous waste, Chemical waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.......Industrial Activity produces trillions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Waste and there are only three places on earth where all this waste can go....Air, water and Soil.....There is no fourth place on earth where this waste can go...... It is impossible for Rivers, Oceans, Atmosphere and Soil to be clean in Industrial Society.

This planet can only sustain a Hunter_Gatherer Society or an Agrarian Society......Not an Industrial Society.

All Environmentalism is Pseudo-Environmentalism in Industrial Society.......It is impossible to save environment in an Industrial Society.

People who pretend they are saving environment in Industrial Society are even more insane, abnormal and criminal than people who are destroying the environment.

It is impossible to save environment in Industrial Society because Industrialization itself is the cause of environmental destruction.........In a non-industrial society environmentalism was not even needed.......In the absence of Industrial Activity environment got saved automatically because only limited destruction of environment was possible without Industrial Machines.

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Environment has been destroyed by Industrial Activity........Trying to save environment without stopping Industrial Activity is like ..

Trying to save a victim of shooting by shooting him even more.

Trying to save a victim of stabbing by stabbing him even more.

Trying to save a victim of poisoning by giving him even more poison.

Height of Insanity, Abnormality and Criminality.......You cannot save environment by destroying more of it.

Industrial Society has been destroying Extra environment for 250 years........It has been destroying environment for "thousands of consumer goods and services" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

You cannot save a person after killing him.......You cannot save environment after it has been killed by Industrial Activity.

The entire Industrial Society deserves the Nobel Prize for Lunacy for pretending that environment is getting saved when the reality is that Industrial Society has been destroying extra environment after industrialization and has destroyed so much extra environment in 250 years that there is hardly any environment left to save.

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What is the Result of 50 years of Environmentalism/ Pseudo Environmentalism in Industrial Society???

Industrial Society has been killing millions of times more Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land than Pre-Industrial Society every day for several decades.

Industrial Society has been killing millions of acres of Forests with Industrial Activity every day for several decades.

Industrial Society has been killing Billions of Animals in Industrial Slaughter Houses every day for several decades.

Industrial Society has been killing millions of Wild Animals by destroying the Forests where they live with Industrial Activity every day for several decades.

Industrial Society has been killing Air, Water and Soil with billions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste every day for several decades.....Industrial Society has been killing Rivers, Oceans, Air/ Atmosphere and Soil/ Land with Billions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic waste, Gaseous waste, Chemical Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste every day for several decades.

Industrial Society has been killing Millions of Acres of Fertile Soil with Cement, Concrete and Asphalt every day for several decades.

All this Killing / Destruction was absent in Pre-Industrial Society without any Environmentalism.

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All Environmentalism in Industrial Society is Pseudo Environmentalism.

No environment is getting saved in Industrial Society.....Not an iota of environment is getting saved.

How can environment ever be saved in Industrial Society when Industrial Activity itself is the cause of environmental destruction....Environment can only be saved in a Non-Industrial Society.

Industrial Society has created hundreds of unnecessary / futile occupations to solve the problems created by Industrialization.....Environmental Activism is one of them.....If thousands of organizations and millions of activists are trying to save environment in Industrial Society it does not mean that environment is getting saved…..There have been three human societies on earth .....Hunter_Gatherer, Agrarian and Industrial.....In Hunter_Gatherer Society there was no Urban Population, entire population was engaged in searching for food.....In Agrarian Society less than 2% of population was Urban, Most of the population was engaged in producing food.....In Industrial Society 50% of world population is producing food for entire population , the remaining 50% population is Urban which has created hundreds of unnecessary occupations to keep itself occupied..... People would go crazy without work…. Environmentalism / Environmental Activism is one such profession [occupation]......[Other unnecessary and destructive professions in Industrial Society include Manufacturing and Marketing of thousands of consumer goods and services, Jobs in Tourism Industry, Entertainment Industry, Sports Industry, Military Industrial Complex and several other jobs]....No Environmentalism was needed in Hunter_Gatherer and Agrarian Societies because in the absence of Industrial Activity only limited destruction of environment was possible, so environment got saved automatically.

If billions of pages of environmental discussion is taking place in Industrial Society it does not mean that environment is getting saved......Endless Discussion, Debate and Argument is a Disease and Insanity of Industrial Society that invented the Printing Press, Radio, Television and Internet.....Animal Species and Hunter_Gatherer Society did not save environment through discussion.....They didn't even have a language for discussion…..Billions of pages of Discussion, Debate and Argument is another harmful waste of Industrial Society just like Billions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.

All Environmentalism in Industrial Society is Pseudo Environmentalism.

No environment is getting saved in Industrial Society.....Not an iota of environment is getting saved.

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The one and only cause of environmental destruction is Industrialization.

Overpopulation and Overconsumerism are consequences / by-products of Industrialization.

Without Industrialization there would be no overpopulation and no overconsumerism.

Industrialization, Overpopulation and Overconsumerism happen together.......Industrialization, Overpopulation and Overconsumerism happen at the same time.

It is Industrialization that has led to a population of 7 billion.....Not overbreeding.

The entire world was overbreeding before Industrialization.....The entire world is underbreeding after Industrialization.

There used to be 5 - 15 children per family all over the world before Industrialization and yet world population reached only 1 billion till 1800 AD......After Industrialization the family size reduced drastically, most families are now having 1 - 4 children and yet world population jumped from 1 billion to 7 billion in just about 200 years.

If Industrialization had not happened world population would be less than 2 billion today.

India and China have large populations today because they started with larger populations thousands of years ago since ancient civilizations thrived in these regions.....What was the population of Europe and America 2000 years ago????.....Was it comparable with the population of India and China???? .....And once again, In the absence of Industrialization India and China would not be having large populations today.

If Industrialization had not happened, High death rate would have kept population of the world under control....Diseases caused by virus and bacteria would have kept population under control.....Feeding capacity of soil would have kept population under control....Shortage of food and water would have kept population under control.....Harsh Climatic Conditions would have kept population under control - People would not have been able to live in regions that are too hot or too cold.

If Industrialization had not happened this planet would have been in very good condition today.....There would be no overpopulation, no overconsumerism and only limited urbanization.

A Non-Industrial Society would have destroyed some ecosystems on the land [Forests] but Marine Ecology [Oceans] would have been almost 100% safe today......Forest Cover would be much greater than what it is now....Millions of species on the land and in the sea would not have been decimated and would be thriving with very healthy populations......This planet would be free of Billions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.....The Oceans wouldn't have become Acidic, Warmer and Oxygen Deprived because of Industrial Waste.

It is consumerism that destroys environment, Not population.

A Hunter_Gatherer Society of 7 billion would have destroyed very little environment...... because it would have destroyed environment only for food......not for thousands of consumer goods and services.

An Agrarian Society of 7 billion would have destroyed very little environment [compared to an Industrial Society of 7 billion]...... because it would have destroyed environment only for food, clothing and shelter.......not for thousands of consumer goods and services.

[By the way, A Hunter_Gatherer Society would have never reached a population of 7 billion......An Agrarian Society would have never reached a population of 7 billion]

Environment has been destroyed by Industrialization/ Consumerism…….Not by Population/ Overpopulation.

Total World Population has not increased ……It has decreased……In fact total world population has been decimated.

When we talk about population we should take into account population of all animal species on earth, not just human population.

Industrial Society has decimated millions of Animal Species……Increase in human population has coincided with decrease/ decimation of millions of animal species.... The total burden of population on this planet has not increased…..It has decreased.

Industrial Society has decimated millions of other species......There was a time when the combined population of other animal species was much greater than present human population.....and we don't even need to include smaller animals in this count.....The combined population of big animals alone whose size and weight was equivalent to or greater than man was much greater than current human population of 7 billion.

The amount of food this animal population was eating was much greater than the food consumed by humans today.......Yet millions of animal species did not destroy environment and lived sustainably on earth for millions of years......because they destroyed environment only for food and not for thousands of consumer goods and services.

If animals had started a consumerist "Industrial Society" millions of years ago they would have destroyed all ecosystems millions of years ago.

The entire world has been trying to control human population for 50 years and these efforts should / will continue in future.....so where is the problem with population?????

It is so ridiculous of Industrial Society to complain about overpopulation when it itself is the cause of overpopulation......It is so ridiculous of Industrial Society to make attempts to control population while promoting Consumerism, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP exponentially.

This planet can only sustain a Non-Industrial Society.

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If Urban Society stops all its supplies to Villages......Electricity, Oil, Machinery and Equipment, Villagers will survive forever.

If Villages stop all their supplies to Cities......Food Grains and Vegetables, Urban Population will die within a month.

[ Villagers need Electricity, Oil, Machinery and Equipment to produce food for the Urban Population , They would not need these things to produce food for themselves]

Urban Population is engaged in Unnecessary Work, Meaningless Work, Futile Work and Destructive Work which has led to destruction of most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems on earth.

For millions of years "Searching For Food" / "Producing Food" were the primary occupations of almost the entire human population in Hunter_Gatherer and Agrarian Society.

There is Zero chance of saving the little environment that is left without fixing the problem of "Urban Population".

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Animal Species had Zero Percent Urban Population.......Hunter_Gatherer Society had Zero Percent Urban Population.......Agrarian Society had less than Two Percent Urban Population.......All these societies sustained for millions of years collectively.

The current Industrial Society which has 50% Urban Population worldwide has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems in just 250 years after Industrial Revolution.......Industrial Activity has been promoted by Urban Population......Industrial Activity has been promoted by people who do not produce food.

This planet can sustain Animal Species.....It can sustain Hunter_Gatherer Human Society......It can sustain Agrarian Human Society......It cannot sustain Industrial Human Society.

This planet can only sustain food producing societies where almost the entire population is engaged in food production......It cannot sustain an Industrial Society where 50% of world population is growing food for entire population and the remaining 50% living in cities is promoting Industrial Activity.

Animals saved environment for millions of years because they destroyed it only for food.....Hunter_Gatherer Society saved environment because it destroyed environment only for food.....Agrarian Society saved environment because it destroyed environment only for food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial Society has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems because it destroyed environment for "Thousands of consumer goods and services" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

In the Animal Kingdom, Hunter_Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society almost the entire population was engaged in "Searching for Food" / "Growing Food".

It is the Urban Population that is engaged in and promoting Industrial Activity ......Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Transportation Industry, Construction Industry, Recycling Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Millions of kilometers of Rail & Road network, Air Routes and Shipping Lanes…..They all destroy environment......All Industrial Activity must be stopped.

Food, clothing and shelter......These are the maximum number of things this planet can provide to humans......The only way to save the remaining environment is by reorganizing the entire population so that food production remains the only primary activity just like it was for millions of years before Industrialization.

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This planet cannot sustain an Industrial / Urban Society......The problem is not Capitalism, The problem is Industrialization / Urbanization.......The solution is not Communism or Socialism, The solution is Non-Industrial / Non-Urban Society.

Capitalism, Communism or Socialism does not matter at all........What matters is percentage of Urban Population......A Socialist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population will be as Harmful, Destructive and Evil as a Capitalist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population...... A Communist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population will be as Harmful, Destructive and Evil as a Capitalist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population.

Urban Population is responsible for consumerism.......Urban Population does not produce Food.....It produces thousands of Consumer Goods and Services.

Consumerism is directly proportional to Percentage of Urban Population.

Saving environment in Industrial Society is an impossibility......No Industrial Society can save environment.......Communist or Socialist Industrial Societies cannot be less destructive than Capitalist Industrial Societies.

There cannot be any sustainable Industrial Society........The fault does not lie in Capitalism.....The fault lies in Industrialization.....All Industrial Societies are the same.....All Industrial Societies are equally harmful, destructive and evil.

Destruction of environment is guaranteed in Industrial Society......The debate over Capitalism, Communism and Socialism in the context of Environmental Crisis is meaningless and absurd.

Industrialization , Urbanization and Consumerism go hand in hand......They happen together.

Today 50% of world population is Urban, living in cities...... 50% of world population is producing food for entire population and the remaining 50% population living in Cities is primarily engaged in production and marketing of thousands of consumer goods and services........Urban population is not producing food, it is producing consumer goods and services.......Even if the entire world is made Communist or Socialist it is not going to bring about any change in consumerism because the percentage of Urban Population will remain the same and it will continue producing and marketing thousands of consumer goods and services.

In America 90 - 95% of population is Urban......That is why consumerism is so rampant in the US......Even if America is made Communist or Socialist it is not going to reduce consumerism because the percentage of Urban Population would still remain the same.

In Europe 80 - 90% of population is Urban.

In China and India consumerism has risen exponentially with the increase in percentage of Urban Population.

Capitalism, Communism or Socialism does not matter.......What matters is Industrialization and Urbanization which results in Consumerism.

This planet cannot sustain Industrial Urban Population.......This planet cannot sustain a society that does not produce its own food.

This planet can sustain a Hunter_Gatherer Society or an Agrarian Society where almost the entire population is engaged in "searching for food" / producing food......This planet cannot sustain an Industrial Society where 50% of population is producing food for entire population and the remaining 50% population is producing thousands of consumer goods and services.

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Industrial Society has existed for barely 250 years which comes to almost Zero Percent of Total Human Existence on earth....Humans have spent more than 99.99% of their time on earth in Non-Industrial Societies [Hunter_Gatherer and Agrarian].....Industrial Society is an Anomaly....Only Non-Industrial Societies are sustainable.

A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been less than 2 billion today.

If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.

At present we are destroying environment for Food, Clothing, Shelter plus Thousands of Industrial consumer goods and services.

We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated or minimized.

We are approaching Environmental Apocalypse.......The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately........Industrial Activity must be primarily limited to food, clothing and shelter.......and even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.


Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 10:03 PM
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Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

Remember Industries are damaging to the environment to the extent of waste generated, inputs demanded and quality of production/process control Men cannot go back to living in huts or caves just because an Industrial economy damages mother earth. The sane choice is to have both, industries as well as environment protection with damage mitigation.

Advanced technologies of production as well as assessment/mitigation of environmental impact combined with recycling will let us gain the best of both worlds. If anyone doesn't want Industries, I'm sure there are forests where you live in peace. But please do not mislead the citizens of Bharat Mata into stoneage, Mr. Yadav.
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 10:26 PM
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Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

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Originally Posted by Origmos View Post
...... But please do not mislead the citizens of Bharat Mata into stoneage, Mr. Yadav.
No one is misleading people into stoneage.

A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been less than 2 billion today.

If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.

At present we are destroying environment for Food, Clothing, Shelter plus Thousands of Industrial consumer goods and services.

We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated or minimized.

We are approaching Environmental Apocalypse.......The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately........Industrial Activity must be primarily limited to food, clothing and shelter.......and even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 05:35 AM
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Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

Quote:
Originally Posted by sushil_yadav View Post
No one is misleading people into stoneage.

A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been less than 2 billion today.

If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.

At present we are destroying environment for Food, Clothing, Shelter plus Thousands of Industrial consumer goods and services.

We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated or minimized.

We are approaching Environmental Apocalypse.......The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately........Industrial Activity must be primarily limited to food, clothing and shelter.......and even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.
In that case, please contribute towards the environment by starting off with disposing your computer first. After all no one needed computers for thousands years right? So why do you need one now?
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Old September 25th, 2012, 05:39 AM
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Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

I do not know about Mr Yadav yet. But there are many people who would be happy to see India and the third world remain in the stone age while the West (the true rapist of Mother Earth) continues its march for progress scientifically and industrially with better and better lifestyles for their people. These people are at worst either active collaborators or at best useful idiots for the West.

Frankly though I know this is a wrong attitude, I would not mind seeing Indians contributing environmental pollution at the same per capita as an average westerner. If Mother Earth is going to be raped indefinitely by mankind, we, Indians, deserve our turn between her legs too. Why should an Indian sacrifice so that the westerner gets his god endowed right to live large?
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Old October 5th, 2012, 10:28 AM
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Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

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In that case, please contribute towards the environment by starting off with disposing your computer first. After all no one needed computers for thousands years right? So why do you need one now?
I never claimed that I am not a part of society that is destroying environment.

The title of my article says "Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment" and since I am a citizen of Industrial Society I get included automatically.

Computers are being used today because they are being manufactured by Industrial Society.

Was anyone using computers in Hunter_Gatherer Society / Agrarian Society?????

There are billions of people in this world who are not using computers.....Has that saved the environment?????.....It hasn't, because billions of people are using computers and thousands of other consumer goods and services.

Environment doesn't get saved if a few people live a simple life.....It doesn't get saved if a few thousand people live a simple life......It doesn't get saved if a few million people live a simple life.....It doesn't get saved even if a few billion people live a simple life [which is happening right now.....Out of 7 billion people roughly half, about 3.5 billion are already living a simple life in Asia, Africa and South America .......but this doesn't save the environment......because the rest 3.5 billion people all over the world are living a highly consumerist life which is enough to destroy all ecosystems.

The entire world has to live a simple life. In animal kingdom all animals lived a simple life.....In Hunter_Gatherer Society all people lived a simple life......In Agrarian Society almost all people lived a simple life.

In a non-industrial society simple living happens automatically....one does not have to make efforts to live a simple life. In a non-industrial society environment gets saved automatically....one does not have to make efforts to save environment.

An Industrial Society produces thousands of consumer goods in addition to food, clothing and shelter.....therefore simple living by entire society is impossible.

There is no industrial society which limits its activity to just food, clothing, shelter and does not produce consumer goods.

If we compare the scale and magnitude of environmental destruction of the three human societies we have had on earth we will find :

Hunter_Gatherer society was least destructive/ hardly caused any destruction......Agrarian Society was thousands of times more destructive.......Industrial Society is millions of times more destructive.

Last edited by sushil_yadav; October 5th, 2012 at 10:32 AM.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 05:43 PM
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Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

..
When there was still time to save environment a whole century was wasted in the futile debate over Capitalism, Socialism and Communism.

Trying to save environment after 250 years of relentless Industrial Activity is like trying to revive a dead man.....There is hardly any environment left to save.

Industrial Activity destroys environment.....Where there is Industrial Activity there is environmental destruction.....Capitalism, Communism or Socialism doesn't matter at all.

Monsanto is not going to become less harmful under Communism or Socialism.

Nuclear Power Plants are not going to become less harmful under Communism or Socialism.

Mining Industry is not going to become less harmful under Communism or Socialism.

Logging Industry is not going to become less destructive under Communism or Socialism.

Construction Industry is not going to become less destructive under Communism or Socialism.

Transportation Industry is not going to become less harmful under Communism or Socialism.

Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Tar Sands and Hydraulic Fracking are not going to become less destructive under Communism or Socialism.

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A person is being shot 100 times......Some people are supposed to save the victim.....They do nothing till 99 bullets have hit the victim.....When the last bullet is about to be fired they rush to save the victim, who is already dead by then.

Industrial Activity has been destroying Biodiversity and Ecosystems for 250 years.....Industrial Society should not have been started in the first place.....Once it came into existence its harmful impact on environment should have alerted people and they should have tried to stop Industrial Activity in the early stages.....If people had tried to stop Industrial Activity 50 years or even 100 years after it began, environment could have been saved because most of the environmental destruction has taken place in the last 50 - 100 years when the rate of Industrialization and Consumerism rose exponentially.....Trying to save environment after 250 years of Industrial Activity is like trying to revive a dead man.....There is hardly any environment left to save.

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When a mass shooter kills 20 American kids the world is outraged.

When millions of baby seals are clubbed to death the world is not outraged.

When Industrial Society kills billions of animals in Slaughter Houses the world is not outraged.

When Industrial Society kills billions of wild animals by destroying forests with Industrial Activity the world is not outraged.

When Industrial Society kills Rivers, Lakes, Oceans, Atmosphere and Land with billions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste the world is not outraged.

When Industrial Society kills billions of acres of fertile soil that provides food to millions of species with Cement, Concrete and Asphalt the world is not outraged.

When Industrial Society kills ecosystems that are home to millions of species it is called Progress, Growth, Development.

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Who is not a killer in Industrial Society?????

Every citizen of Industrial Society is a Serial Killer.....Serial Killer of nature.....Serial Killer of animals, trees, air, water and land.

Industrial Society has killed billions of farm animals in Slaughter Houses and billions of wild animals in forests with Industrial Activity for making consumer goods and services.....If we divide this number by total Industrial population we get per capita killing of animals.

Industrial Society has killed billions of Trees in forests with Industrial Activity for making consumer goods and services.....If we divide this number by total Industrial population we get per capita killing of Trees.

Industrial Activity has produced billions of tonnes of solid, liquid and gaseous Industrial Waste.....This waste has polluted and poisoned air, water and soil....If we divide this number by total Industrial population we get per capita waste which is a measure of per capita killing of air, water and soil.

Every citizen of Industrial Society is a Serial Killer.....Serial Killer of nature.....Serial Killer of animals, trees, air, water and land.

Mass shooters are not the only insane people in this society.....The entire Industrial Society is insane.

The entire Industrial Society is insane, abnormal and criminal.

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Industrial Society is a curse on this planet.

This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" Societies.....It cannot sustain an Industrial Society.

This planet can only sustain Hunter_Gatherer Society or Agrarian Society.....It cannot sustain an Industrial Society....It cannot sustain an Urban Society that produces thousands of consumer goods and services instead of food.

An Industrial Society will always be cruel to millions of other species and to itself.

A society that has destroyed all the natural resources of the planet will also destroy itself.

After destroying biodiversity and ecosystems which sustained human life for millions of years man will not even exist.

Welfare of humans and millions of other species is only possible in a non-industrial society.

Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth....The biggest act of killing, murder and terrorism on earth.

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Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 06:18 PM
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Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

.

Five Elephants were run over by a train in the state of Orissa in India yesterday.

One of them was a female in advanced stage of pregnancy whose foetus came out as the train hit the mother.

The world will celebrate one more New Year's Eve today......After torturing, slaughtering and decimating millions of species this world will celebrate yet another New Year today.
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After destroying planet Earth.....After destroying most of the biodiversity and ecosystems, Industrial Society should be in Mourning but it wants to Celebrate instead.

It wants to Celebrate Diwali, Christmas, New Year and Hundreds of other Festivals.

If Industrial Society had any shame there would have been no Celebrations in the past , no celebrations for the next thousands of years.....only Mourning.

Industrial Society has decimated millions of Animal Species, destroyed Forests, poisoned Rivers, Oceans, Soil and Sky with Billions of Tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste.

Industrial Society is a curse on this planet.

Celebrate!!!....Celebrate!!!....Celebrate!!!

Celebrate Diwali, Christmas, New Year and Hundreds of other Festivals!!!!.....Go Shopping.....Spend Money.....Buy Gifts....Buy thousands of consumer goods and services.....Promote and Accelerate Industrial Activity which will kill even more Biodiversity and Ecosystems.

And then wait for next year to celebrate the death of nature once more.
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Industrial Society is a curse on this planet.

This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" Societies.....It cannot sustain an Industrial Society.

This planet can only sustain Hunter_Gatherer Society or Agrarian Society.....It cannot sustain an Industrial Society....It cannot sustain an Urban Society that produces thousands of consumer goods and services instead of food.
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More than 99.9% destruction of this planet has already happened.....Only the end of humans is yet to happen.

Most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems have already been destroyed.

Species are not lost when they become extinct....Species are lost when they get decimated....Species were lost when their populations dropped from billions and millions before industrialization to thousands and hundreds after industrialization.

There are(were) millions of species in this world....Most of them have already been decimated because Industrial Activity has destroyed most of the forests....Millions of Plant and Animal species have been decimated by Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Construction Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Transportation Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Networks, Ports and Airports..

If we calculate the decline in populations of millions of species after industrialization the combined loss will come to more than 99.9%.

Rivers, Lakes, Oceans, Atmosphere and Land have been polluted, poisoned and killed by trillions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.....The entire planet has become a Toxic Dump.....All Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste that has been produced by Industrial Society in 250 years after Industrial Revolution has accumulated on earth....It has not gone out of earth.

Oceans have turned acidic and warmer and there are oxygen deprived dead zones in the oceans....Fish in the oceans have been decimated by Industrial Fishing.

Billions of acres of fertile soil that was the source of food to millions of species has been killed by Cement, Concrete and Asphalt.

A society that has destroyed all the natural resources of the planet will also destroy itself.

After destroying biodiversity and ecosystems which sustained human life for millions of years man will not exist...It is only a matter of a few years now.
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